The Human Side of Elite Athletes | Julie Kliegman of the book, Mind Game

I think one of the main messages of my writing, including my book, is that we shouldn't put athletes on these pedestals. We shouldn't, as fans and the public, expect them to be perfect. We shouldn't expect them to be superhuman, even though some of the things they do on the field or the court look superhuman. Yeah, it can be hard to remember because of that, but they're really just people and they. They hear your criticism, they hear your praise, they hear all of it. So just remembering that while the best athletes are role mod, that doesn't mean they're on a whole nother level from the rest of society.

Welcome to the Mental Health Entrepreneur Podcast. We are here to inspire creative ideas and connections for entrepreneurs and advocates working to address our mental health crisis. As you listen, I hope you will experience new ideas and motivation to innovate in your business, your community, and in your life. Welcome back, everyone, to the Mental Health Entrepreneur Podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Harrison, and with me today is Julie Kligman, who is an author of the book Mind Games and has written many articles about elite athletes and mental wellness. I'm so glad to have you, Julie.

Thanks so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Awesome. Well, let's dig in. As an author, how did you get interested in mental wellness for athletes?

Yeah, so I guess it's kind of like a two prong thing where I've always been interested in mental wellness in general. Mental illness is something that I've struggled with throughout my life. I was eventually diagnosed with bipolar 2 disorder. And, you know, I grew up a sports fan. I played sports in middle and high school. And so to me, there was like a natural connection there with how sports can help and hurt someone's mental health. And the great feats that we see athletes do in spite of mental health challenges was always really fascinating to me.

Okay, cool. So you just dug into maybe some of your own journey and then others journey. I know there are lots of people that have made their journeys a little more public.

Yeah. In recent years, we're seeing a lot of prominent athletes come forward to talk about their experiences in a way we really haven't seen before.

I agree. What do you think has inspired that?

Well, I think the stigma, at least around some mental illness, has been lessening, and that makes it a safer space for athletes to come forward. They also increasingly have resources available through their teams and leagues that might make them feel a little more comfortable stepping forward. But I think we really saw like a sea change with first with Michael Phelps a handful of years ago, and then more recently with Simone Biles and Naomi Osaka. I think people are seeing if superstars on that level can come forward, then maybe they can, too.

Mm. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It does seem to have a lot of power. I mean, I guess to me, revealing something like that could go either way, right? It could be either this is fantastic, and people understand and connect to you and you help other people that are struggling, or is there judgment? And do you see both of that? How is that tracking for people?

That's a good question. And it's something we definitely see both sides of, unfortunately. I think Simone Biles is a good example. She, of course, got a lot of support, but there were also other athletes and, you know, other people. A lot of people on the right side of the political spectrum. But, you know, there was a lot of criticism saying she was unpatriotic for stepping back from the Olympics. So it's. It can be a really mixed bag, especially, you know, if you're not white. I think that's one factor is people are less accepting of you in general and then therefore less accepting of your struggles. So factors like gender, race, and stuff definitely play into how people are received when they come forward.

Yeah, I want to break into that a little bit. So what kind of patterns have you seen? You're. You're telling me that race is certainly a factor, also gender, also maybe sexual identity. What. What do you see in those areas?

Yeah, yeah, race, as I said, definitely a factor where athletes who aren't white are sort of expected to be more perfect, are held to higher standards oftentimes. And then with gender, it's actually interesting because while women in sports face a whole lot of issues with mental health, in some ways it's easier for them to come forward than men because of the stereotypes of women being, like, quote, unquote, emotional and. And stuff like that. And it's the men who are expected to be particularly strong and immune to crying. And, you know, all those stereotypes we're familiar with, and then with sexuality and gender identity and stuff, it can really impact how at risk you are for certain mental health conditions. So that comes into play as well, especially with something like eating disorders. We've seen a lot of research on that.

Yeah. And I feel like when. When you're high profile, I mean, we've seen some of the backlash at the Olympics and things about gender. Right. And about identity that I can't imagine, when you're in the public eye, that all of that is just so much harder. Right. I Can't imagine that all of that criticism can really just bounce off. I don't know what your thoughts are about that, but I always am thinking like, this is a human being.

Absolutely. The question I get asked every so often is, why do I focus on athletes when everybody faces these mental health challenges? My answer is, well, of course we should be caring about everyone. I'm not ever trying to suggest that only athletes matter, that they matter more than non athletes, athletes. But athletes, I think, face, as you're suggesting so much public pressure and they're. They're under such a big spotlight in a way most of us are not. And I think that definitely compounds any mental health challenges they might be more predisposed to.

Do you think it's just the spotlight, so to speak, that does that, or are there also pieces of, like, their training or maybe feeling more isolated, like having a smaller group of peers? I'm curious about those things.

Well, I think individual athletes like Simone Biles, like Naomi Osaka, who don't have teams to rely on, I think that is a particular factor because there's so few people they can lean on for support. And then, yeah, like training. We've seen a lot of coaches. This is getting better. But a lot of coaches aren't super friendly about mental health issues, for lack of a better term. I think that's an area that still needs a lot of improvement, is understanding on the coaches and the front office kind of point of view.

So what kind of patterns do you see there? Like, what are some of the beliefs or like the culture that's implemented by some coaches?

It's kind of like, suck it up, don't tell anyone you're struggling, put your team first or put the game first, you know, And I want to be clear that this is certainly not every coach, but, oh, sure, there are coaches where players are afraid of being benched if they come forward with mental health concerns.

Okay.

People are afraid to disclose these depending on the situation they're in.

Wow. And if it's their whole livelihood, if that they're a professional athlete, that's even more at risk.

Absolutely, yeah. This is the career they've trained for all their lives.

I know I've heard a lot about pay inequity for women's sports versus men's sports. I'm wondering how you see that be a factor in this or not.

I think it's definitely a factor in a couple of important ways. One is that, well, if you have less income, you're less likely to be able to afford resources and Providers outside the team environment. Because not everyone wants to see a psychologist or a psychiatrist that's affiliated with their team for privacy reasons.

Oh yeah.

So that's a huge issue that comes up a lot. And then the other way it comes up is like if you're constantly like having to fight for equal pay and stuff, that's just another stressor, almost like another full time job on top of your job as an athlete. So that can really compound whatever struggles you're dealing with.

Yeah. So I'm hearing like all of these pieces that you've noticed, maybe for yourself, for other people you've written about. Where does that leave us? Where are we now? Have we made progress? What do we need? I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on those things.

We've definitely made progress. More teams and leagues and colleges even have sports psychology and mental health professionals available for athletes, sometimes even more than one. So that's a really big development that I'd like to continue to see progress in. As I said, I'd like to see progress in teams allowing players to go outside of the team environment for their help and support, you know, supporting them financially to do so. I also think like everything trickles back down to youth sports and you know, those athletes. It's not like most parents can afford their kid to see like a sports psychologist or anything like that at such a young age. And you know, it's debatable whether they even need to. But I do think it's good to instill in kids early that they should have an identity outside of sports, that sports is not the end all, be all, that they don't need to specialize in one sport specifically from such a young age. We've seen how that can really take a toll on people.

I love that. Yeah. That identity piece that there's more because I do feel like the higher up you get in becoming a professional athlete, the more time. Right. And energy and part of like your whole day, your whole life can really just be focused around that.

Yeah, yeah. And most people, well, many athletes, I should say, don't really reckon with that issue until they're forced out of the sport. Like they're injured or say, for example, a pandemic hits and they're. And they're forced out of their sport that way for a while or they hit retirement age and they realize, okay, who am I? Even without say basketball or whatever the sport may be.

Right. And they hit that typically at such a younger age. Like when you say that I immediately connect with often people that Retire from a job or a career that they've done have been a certain profession. That's the similar thing. Like, who am I now that I'm not an attorney or a therapist or whatever. But they hit it typically younger just because sports are so physical.

Absolutely. Yeah. We see people in their 30s and 40s, and often even younger than that, who now have to find completely different careers, who have to figure out who they are, who have to figure out how to meet all their medical and mental health needs without being in the sport environment.

Yeah. Interesting. Do you feel like you've mentioned that idea of, like, even community providers, like, being able to go outside of the team and what the team might provide? I'm curious, is that looked down upon?

I think it can be like. It can be like, what are you hiding? Or.

Oh, yeah.

But, you know, I think ultimately it's what I hear a lot of players asking for the chance to do, and we need to take their requests and experience really seriously.

Well, that begs the question. I mean, in. In my field of therapy, all therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, we're supposed to keep that information confident. Unless there's a safety issue. Right. That's of course, like someone's being abused. Those are some of the reasons we would break that. I mean, I'm hoping that those professionals are still holding that standard if it's a team psychologist or something like that. But maybe there's a perception that there's a risk that that person is talking, or is there really a risk that that person is somehow making recommendations even if they're not disclosing information? Is that kind of the gist of it?

I think you're right that it's more the perception of a risk than necessarily a risk itself. But. Yeah, when I think athletes can't help but wonder when someone is being paid by their team, you know, ultimately the same person who pays their salary. Is there a sort of conflict of interest? Now, I'll say that when I've talked to professionals who work for various teams, they all stress the confidentiality. So it seems like they're professionals, they're above board. But I do get the worry on the athlete's part.

Sure. I mean, it does make sense. And there could be. I mean, people aren't perfect. There could be undue pressure, like from a coach to say, I really need to know if I can play this player or whatever.

Right. Yeah. There's always a risk.

Yeah. Confidentiality is such a central piece because even if there is confidentiality with that person, and I'm Going to assume that most of the time there is. If it's not perceived that way, then it sort of doesn't matter because that safety is. The confidentiality creates that safety.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. So. And I guess we're saying perceived confidentiality could harm it just as well as if it actually it's not confidential.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

Yeah. Big stuff. So what do we need? Where do we need to go with this?

That's obviously a big question. It's one I've spent a lot of time thinking about, but I don't pretend to have all the answers myself. But I think we need more resources for athletes, we need more money for athletes, good retirement benefits for athletes. And also I think we just need to understand, like, you know, I'm a journalist, I'm a member of the media. I think the media needs to be a little bit better and more consistent about telling these stories in a sensitive way and telling them in a way that's not just like a one off, like, oh, so and so said they have depression and then a story all about that one person. I mean, that's. That can be a great useful thing. But I think we need to connect this to a bigger mental health crisis and really be writing about mental health in more holistic ways.

I love that. I mean, I can definitely say that from my vantage point, especially since COVID There are so many factors at play here. There are far more people that need services. The intensity with which people come into therapy is higher than it used to be. The things that they're struggling with and dealing with is higher. And the therapists, there aren't enough therapists anyway. And the therapists are struggling with that high intensity of need. We got a whole lot of things. And then we have tech companies offering different options that are maybe different than the types of treatment approaches that many of us have been trained in. Could be good for some people, but we just have all of these factors to your point of, like have this sort of crisis level. We know that teens and kids are needing services at a much higher rate than they ever used to. For whatever reason. People always want to point to the why of that, but it is concerning if we don't have treatment available or safe enough treatment or maybe the choice of what treatment. Right. So what are our options? Even if you're an athlete, maybe it's just your team person, but what if you could have a menu of choices so that you could feel in control and saf safer about your treatment options? And I would want that for anyone? Not just.

Absolutely. Yeah. Like I said, it's easy to focus on athletes. And if I were to write a book about mental health in general, that'd be like 8,000 books. But, yeah, we. We definitely can be looking at the way we treat athletes and the resources we give them and kind of like expand that to everyone. Because you're right. I mean, there isn't a person on earth who shouldn't have access to these resources.

Mm. Yeah, but it's such a. It's a people dependent field. Like, we've gotta have the people to do it and.

Right.

I mean, that's a lot of the impetus for this podcast is what are some creative approaches? So I guess I want to ask too, outside of traditional, like, outpatient mental health care, are there other options that are available to athletes just to support mental wellness in general?

Yeah, I think that's kind of where sports psychology comes in. A lot of people sort of rightfully have questions about how effective that is or who that really serves, because in some cases, I think people view sports psychology practitioners as people who are there to keep the team winning as opposed to keeping the athletes healthy and thriving. It's. And it's a really unregulated field, especially compared to traditional therapy or psychiatry. But I do think that when professionals there are good and responsible, they can help athletes focus on the game and focus on their mentality in a healthy way that maybe can prevent some problems from coming up or make those problems easier to deal with when they do come up.

Okay. Yeah. But this idea of also being tough and powering through and prioritizing the sport, I can see where that can lead to just struggles.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think in a sense, though, sports psychology can be this kind of Trojan horse where if you can't get an athlete in therapy to talk about their depression, whether they even know to call it that, if you can't necessarily get an athlete in the door, that way you can get them in the door by saying, like, hey, let's help you be more successful. And so maybe that makes that person feel more comfortable seeking help in general.

That's a really good way to look at it. Yeah, I can appreciate that. And to be fair to coaches, I. I think there are some coaches that also know how to naturally just support the whole person. Like, I. I've definitely seen that along the way. And they are probably very pivotal to just supporting the general wellness of their players and the team.

Yeah, I mean, like, having a good support network is everything. Right. And that starts with like, one person who will listen to you.

Right. And so back to your point about team sports versus individual sports. If it's a healthy, functioning team, it could also be an amazing support system there, too.

100%. Yeah. With players supporting each other. Yeah.

Awesome. What do you think that people need to know about this topic or just in general about the things you write about? What. What are you wanting to get out there in the public?

I think one of the main messages of my writing, including my book, is that we should have put athletes on these pedestals. We shouldn't, as fans and the public, expect them to be perfect. We shouldn't expect them to be superhuman, even though some of the things they do on the field or the court look superhuman. Yeah. It can be hard to remember because of that, but they're really just people, and they. They hear your criticism, they hear your praise. They hear all of it. So just remembering that while the best athletes are role models, that doesn't mean they're on a whole nother level from the rest of society.

I really like that. And I imagine they would echo that sentiment, too, probably. They often just feel like they're just people. Like, why are people making such a big deal or whatever about everything that they do? Right. They're like, I'm just a person.

Right. They're just doing their job every day. Yeah.

Yeah. I love that. So I hear that you are writing a new book. I'm curious what that one is about.

That book is a biography of the transgender tennis player Renee Richards, who, in the 1970s, she sued for her right to play in the US Open and won in the women's draw. So that was a pretty groundbreaking story that I'm excited to really dive into, introduce new generations of people to.

I love that. Yeah. Because you think about the 70s, you know, we've made maybe some progress in that. I don't know if it's been enough, but we've made some.

Yeah.

So what a huge victory. That's pretty inspiring.

Yeah. It's really a momentous occasion. And we're coming up in a few years on the 50th anniversary of it, which is incredible. And Renee is still with us, and I've been able to talk to her for my book, So I just can't wait to introduce a larger audience of people to her.

That's fantastic. I can't wait for that either. That sounds remarkable.

Thank you.

Yeah. Any last thing that you would like to leave with our listeners today? We're almost out of time. Something either about your work or about mental health. Something you just want people to really think on or consider as they are looking at their own mental wellness or that of others.

Yeah. I think a lot of times you hear from athletes and from people in general the phrase, like, it's okay to not be okay. I think that's a great thing worth highlighting. And then I also think I. I would encourage people to kind of go beyond statements like that and even think like, you and I got into it a little bit here, like, thinking about possible solutions and steps forward to make it even more okay to not be okay and actually address some of the underlying issues.

Yeah, I love that because I think it's a very individual process. Right. What works for one person does not work for another person. Because we are all humans and very complex and there's no cookie cutter right thing to feel or say or treatment approach. Like, it's. Yeah. Our own uniqueness is beautiful. And it means that we have to take each person as their own unique individual in this work.

Absolutely. I think that's a wonderful parting thought.

Well, Julie, it was a pleasure. Thanks for being here.

Thank you so much for having me.