Proactively Addressing Mental Health | Rachael Bevilacqua of Sanare Today

People don't talk about it enough. We don't recognize that there are things that we might be doing without our knowledge or knowing the impact on us. And if we can learn that again, it can empower us. It can give us choice back. I think that's half the battle is, is we get sick and then we feel like we don't have a choice. Right. People that I tend to see in iop, they don't have a choice anymore. They can't get out of bed. They can't go to work. They don't have a choice but to go on fmla. That sucks. To get to a point where the choice is taken from you. That is what I'm trying to address here. That's what I want to point us at. Instead of catching you when you're. You're at your lowest, let's identify what our best is. You know, if. When I ask my clients a lot of times, like, what is it that you want? What is your goal? Most of them, they say, I want to be less depressed and I want to think less terribly. I'm like, is that what good is? We don't even know the definition of good anymore. We just know what we want to avoid. And we live in a place of avoidance that we don't even know what we're working towards. We wouldn't even know if it hit us in the face. What does health. What does mental health wellness look like?

Welcome to the Mental Health Entrepreneur Podcast. We are here to inspire creative ideas and connections for entrepreneurs and advocates working to address our mental health crisis. As you listen, I hope you will experience new ideas and motivation to innovate in your business, your community, and in your life. Welcome back to the Mental Health Entrepreneur Podcast. We are here today to highlight entrepreneurs addressing our mental health crisis. And our guest is Rachel Bevilacqua, who is the vice president of Senare today. Welcome, Rachel.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah. So let's start talking a little bit about Senari today and kind of your mission, your vision, what are you all trying to do in the world?

That's a very loaded question.

I know.

Love, love that question. In general, why we got started in the first place is really to help people thrive. And the way that we initially started doing that was through intensive outpatient programming specific to mental health at the time. And we've slowly evolved from there, recognizing that people who want to thrive maybe don't need IOP or maybe aren't just adults needing mental health addressed. And so we've branched out from mental health Specific to more substance specific or trauma specific or DBT specific and the like to really expand and meet people where they're at and with the specific needs that they have as opposed to how kind of pigeonholing them into this, you need treatment because you're sick kind of thing. So IOP is where we started and then we wanted to really meet the continuum of care and have branched out to outpatient as well as partial level of care. But one thing that we're trying to really capture and I think is really the mission is not waiting until people get sick. We want to start really meeting people in the community just seeing like hey, you're a little burnout, you know, or hey, like I don't know if you're taking care of yourself, let's maybe check in on that. And really adding in other elements to self care. That doesn't mean you're at an IOP acuity, if you will, or with a diagnosis. Right. I think that's a lot of times me as a practitioner that's, you know, was my bread and butter before. It's kind of what I thrived in, was helping people who were not able to function on a day to day basis. And I, I love seeing that process. But how cool if we could meet people before then? How cool if we could teach the community that you don't have to get there. It doesn't have to be the worst case scenario before you come and get help, you know, and if we could create that, I don't think the whole stigma thing would even be an issue that we're trying to break. It just would be so long winded answer. But that's what we're about right now.

No, I love that. Almost like a preventive care method, right?

Absolutely. But we'll catch you if you make it to the other end too. But we would love to meet you before then.

Yeah. And as practitioners. Yeah. You and I know this, often there are so many things we can do that would be a shorter amount of time in therapy or whatnot on the earlier end of something before it gets really ingrained or deeper levels of whatever mental illness, all those things. And why iop? How did, how was it that you decided to start with? And for everyone listening, intensive outpatient is what we're referring to, which is usually going to therapy for a series of days of the week. So you might have group a couple of days, you might have some individual. It's just a more intensive form of outpatient treatment.

So I'm not the owner of scenario But I do oversee programming right now. But the owner originally, that's kind of what he did, was creating iops, developing iops, running iops, and that was his jam. And so the reason I fell in love with it, though, as a practitioner, is because it was so cool to see somebody come in on day one who I might see individually, let's say, who's struggling, doesn't want to get out of bed, doesn't want to live. And four days later, it's completely different. They have hope again. They have some outlet to put their energy into that's not just in bed. And it was the coolest thing to see them have something to go to every day, to have a group atmosphere that keeps them accountable, have in it that really get what they're going through, as opposed to me just maybe reflecting as if I kind of understand or, you know, express empathy. It's a whole different atmosphere. And I think that's what made me fall in love with IOP is it's that perfect medium for people who maybe individuals not quite cutting it, and they want to maybe get better quicker and that accountability and consistency, they get to see that a lot faster. Or maybe they are at a place where they're like, I'm not doing great, but I really don't want to go to a hospital or to a residential facility. Iop can catch you too, of like, hey, let's see if we can do this on an outpatient basis where you don't have to uproot your life. You know, let's come here during the day, come here after work, whatever works for you, and we're going to get you better quick. And I always tell people, give me four sessions, and if you don't see a change in four sessions, then this isn't the right place for you. But I can guarantee that most people who come to an iop, at least with us, by day four, they're going to have a vision on what the next trajectory is for them. Sometimes outpatient. And what I've learned, it was just not cutting it for them. It wasn't enough support. And this is a lot of times for people who don't have a ton of support outside of those sessions, too, is another element to it. So, yeah, I think that's why we started with that and then realized we didn't like just sending people elsewhere, so we wanted to expand. That's kind of where everything else came from too.

Right. And you talk about these different tracks that you sort of have within iop. You have addiction, treatment you have trauma treatment, you have dbt. Can you talk a little bit about those?

Yeah, absolutely. So depending on what treatment we're using, it can vary per track or program that you're actually in. So we started to make them more focused on particular diagnoses or difficulties that people are coming in with as opposed to just general mental health. A lot of times we would use things like cbt, DBT sprinkled in their motivational interviewing. But what we found is that, you know, for instance, people struggling with trauma, people who are actually having trauma symptoms in iop, they need to get addressed. We can't just be using coping skills to process a trauma or a traumatic response like a nightmare or anything that might come up. That's not something they can just handle on their own. So we needed to use a different type of approach. So for instance, our trauma specific programming is three days of group and one day of individual so they can get some EMDR work done. So we do a lot of safety and stabilization in the group and support there. And then if they are at a place of stabilization, they get to actually do some reprocessing in their individual session. And then for aftercare we have, we have make sure that that's set up for them and they can continue. But what we've seen is that a lot of people need that one maybe first to just really get through some of that tougher stuff and then they can actually move if they need more IOP into like more of a general mental health, if you will, to really work on whatever else is there. So we've kind of created that. We've also created where you can kind of come to mental health, like the mental health general track, if you will, but also do adjunct emdr. So I won't go into that right now, but so people who just have recent events that have happened that are coming up that don't need a full trauma specific iop, but they could really use a recent event protocol. So they'll be in their general mental health IOP and they'll actually do once a week, individual adjunct as well, five to six weeks, swipe clean. It's amazing. I mean, people who will be going through multiple weeks and weeks and weeks of treatment, they can get it in such a short period of time. And that's just because we can do the work quicker. It's not racing through it, it's just more consistent. We created the DBT specific IOP for people who maybe would not benefit as much from processing as much and really need to get into Skill building. These are for people who maybe have gone through treatment several times and have heard these skills over and over, but really just don't understand how to apply them. And so we really make sure that they understand what that skill is and actually practice it every single day that they're in group. And that also incorporates an individual session in addition to the group sessions, similar to the trauma programming. So that's kind of where those kind of came from, is really meeting the need of a specific population and what they are actually needing. All of our therapists are trained to gear their treatment process towards whatever the group is coming in with. But it is kind of nice feeling like you're in a safe space where other people have those very similar struggles, especially things like trauma, lgbtq, trauma specific groups, things like that. It's just, it's nice to have other people who really do get it as opposed to maybe being in a general mental health group, for instance, having significant trauma that maybe other people can't quite understand. So we found that that that's really beneficial for clients to feel safe.

Amazing. And yes, needing that higher level of care, but not necessarily a hospitalization, I think is really an important need that we see in our communities.

Absolutely. I don't think it's one people know a whole lot about though. I think when you think mental health or just counseling in general, you think individual one on one. Right. Maybe some family couples is sprinkled in there or hospital. I don't know that people know too much about the in between. I never learned it in grad school, honestly, so I didn't know about it either. So it's something I think it's important for people to know about because you don't have to be on either end of the extreme, you know, you just don't. So. Right. It's traumatizing to go to a hospital, needless to say.

It sure is. Yeah. And then insurance covers it as well. Right. So this isn't necessarily something that's out of pocket or excludes people. It's hopefully accessible for most.

Yep, absolutely. And we'll work with you. We understand it's four copays a week. Right. So we'll work with anybody on a payment plan if that's necessary. And we work with all commercial insurances, which is amazing.

And then what is, what is the vision for Senari today? Where are you going?

So our 2024 goal is to really bring in other elements other than just behavioral health. That's where we started. My background is in behavioral health, but I've also been a personal trainer for a long time. I have nutrition certification. My vision as a practitioner when I first started was combining all of those for my clients. Because it's not just about talking to yourself in a certain way or, you know, changing your behavior. There's like so many other things that people just miss. Like, are you drinking water, Are you eating things that are going to fuel your brain in a way that's beneficial, Are you moving on a daily basis? Are you sitting in sedentary? Like, I don't know how many people are addressing all of those things. And our goal is to make sure that everybody who walks through our door gets a taste of each of those from maybe different specialties. So one thing we just launched or are starting to launch, is a nutrition specific program that really addresses your needs, whether it's for anything that's going on, like a celiac disease or new moms who are postpartum needing help. Those are two specialties we're working on right now. Or if it's just somebody who doesn't know how to get back to eating a balanced diet or doesn't even know what that looks like. Maybe they're actually struggling with things like panic attacks and not recognizing the amount of caffeine that they've been consuming is influencing that. Right. So just picking out things that may appear obvious to the professional, but maybe not to just the everyday person who just has been doing this for so long. And then the other element is movement. So we really want to bring in a movement component in 2024. Come ask me what that looks like next year. But to really address all facets, because I think when people hear, at least my clients, when they hear nutrition or they hear movement, they think, I mean, eating three meals a day, making sure you don't have any sugar and white flour and that you're going to the gym every single day and sweating. And that's not what I mean. And to be able to educate people that, like, it doesn't have to, again, be that extreme, that it can fit into whatever lifestyle you prefer and whatever makes sense for you. I want to empower people to know that I think lack of education or awareness by no fault of anybody is, is a big barrier for people because they just don't know any different. So if I can educate them or give them the resources, I mean, the limit is endless. And then they get to make that decision. They get to feel empowered by the knowledge that they've learned and they can make those decisions for themselves and their family. And I think that's awesome. So that's our 2024 goal, if you will.

And then how about your locations?

You're in several states, so we are actively working in Pennsylvania, Delaware and North Carolina right now. As our newest site, we have a location in New Jersey. We're still working on some licensing there and just actually submitted for Maryland near you guys. So we're excited about that. So, yeah, our hope is to be in all of those states by next year and to really branch out through there as well, starting with Iops and partials and then. And those other elements is. Is our goal. So I think Iop, at least for now, is going to be our platform because it's just. It's what we know, it's what we love. So.

Yeah. And how did you get involved with Sonari?

Oh, my gosh. So our owners, Dr. Darren Rodilla is a physical therapist and Dr. Luba Laqua, who's actually my dad, not my husband, is a psychologist by trade. And back in, I think it was 2015, they met. I was actually living down south, but before I moved down south, I was a personal trainer in LA Fitness and knew Darren. And I guess I don't know if I introduced them or met or whatever, but as once I moved, they got together and were like, I have this vision. And Lou was asking Darren, like, would you invest in this? And he's like, well, no, I want a partner. Like, that's what I want to do too. They both had these visions, you know, Darren, as a physical therapist, recognized that they're not linking that, you know, yes, you can move your arm better or your knee doesn't hurt, but you're afraid to run now because of whatever incident had happened. Right. So there's no connection or is anybody even asking you, are you happy? Guess your, you know, your elbow's better, but are you happy? Nobody asks. And same thing on Lou's end. He's, you know, fixing the brain, if you will, and helping them get back to work. But are you happy at work? Like, are you enjoying your day to day? And so when they came together, they were like, this is the perfect bond because this is what we ultimately want to do. Both of our specialties. Marrying each other is exactly what we're looking for. And then it was a perfect opportunity when I heard about it, because we actually opened up a location inside Kinetic Physical Therapy in Chester Springs. So it had a gym. So I was like, well, let me come run an Iop for you guys. And then I will also take my clients to Work out to teach them how to move their bodies in intentional ways. And then we also worked on nutrition. So I kind of piloted. And this is way back In, I think, 2017, at this point where I piloted it, it was the coolest thing. Just seeing people, oh my gosh, feel empowered to move, you know, like, how many of us are only aware of when we're uncomfortable, when it wasn't on purpose, you know, and to create this discomfort and create an association with it that's not so scary is just the coolest thing to watch. And how you incorporate that with everything else that we're trying to teach that. I mean, it was awesome. So, again, that kind of was the first spark for me to come up here and work with such a great organization. And I've had the opportunity to be kind of in every department. I was an administrative assistant when I was in, like, high school college for another company. So I was helping them with their intake department and marketing and all of that. So it was really. It's been a really cool experience. Just to kind of get to go through all the things and now get to really work on the programming as a whole has been really awesome. So very grateful.

What is the entrepreneur journey been like for you? If there have been some ups and downs, what's. What's that been like?

That's a good question. I guess first and foremost exciting, but it's definitely been a journey. I don't come from a business background or a marketing background or any of that. I think I was trained even through grad school of, if you're becoming a therapist, don't expect to make any money. This is your life's work, do well for other people. And that's. That's what it is. Right. And so that was kind of what I thought my life purpose was going to be. It was just, to be honest, this idea of like sacrificing yourself for everybody else, which ironically, I think is. Is a lot of people's focus, even if you're not a therapist. And so that was a really hard transition for me to recognize. You don't have to be poor and helping people and burnt out to be an awesome therapist. And I've gone through a really great journey to recognize, like, that's not what that looks like. And also, no therapist or people in the healthcare industry has to be making no money. Like, what you're doing is valuable. So it's been really cool actually working with people who are business entrepreneurs and learning that there are ways that you can actually compensate people and the business can still thrive as well. So to be able to learn both of those parts has been, oh, my gosh, the most fulfilling thing for me. I never knew that I'd be looking at balance sheets or lease agreements. I never really thought that that would be of interest to me. And to be able to see how I can create an organization for people who are just like me. And it doesn't have to be that way. It's been awesome. And to have a hand in that and to see people kind of pull people out of the fire almost, because a lot of our people who work at our company have never been in a company before that, I guess, values them as a person and hopes that they are thriving first. You know, you always hear the customers, right? We don't follow that. I mean, yes, the client is a top priority, but if my team isn't doing well, how are they going to help anybody thrive? And so that has been a cool opportunity to really shift my mindset and notice that other people agree with that mindset and to be able to put that into an organization has been awesome.

And it sounds like some learning curves along the way.

Oh, absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah. Recognizing the back end of things, it was definitely eye opening because I also came from private practice, too, so it was very much a. I do this, I get this. And it's very different from the back end. Seeing what that really. That really means.

What have you learned about the back end? I'm curious.

Oh, my gosh. So Darren Rodea, who's the physical therapist I told you about, is also our CEO cfo. So learning from his perspective of, oh, my gosh, I can go. I don't know how. How detailed you want me to get, but just learning how to balance an organization to be sustainable and resilient, for instance, like, I would never know, 50% of all money coming in should go to payroll. And how crazy it is and how interesting it is that that makes things so much easier from a business perspective of, okay, this is how much I have, and this is where these things go. Learning where you can put money from the people that, you know are serving your company, to investing back into your company, to keeping you, you know, a pot of resilience for things like a pandemic. How cool that we had such an infrastructure that really created a foundation where we could sustain and not have to let anybody go during such a craz. So, yeah, just kind of learning those things, Learning how to be disciplined, learning how to be decisive. I think that was another thing I, a therapist by Trade. I always want to offer opportunities for everybody and I want to give people, you know, all the chances in the world for all these things. But at the end of the day when I notice this is our vision, and I want a team that has that vision and that's been cool, being involved in making sure that are we all holding that same thing. And if you don't, totally fine. But this is what our vision is. And to create a team that you surround yourself that has the same vision is just so cool. And to have all these creative minds come together. I mean, I keep using the word cool, but I can't think of anything. But yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't know if I have like a ton of other examples on my mind, but I think, yeah, those things I just again, never thought I would ever learn and I don't hate it at the way that I thought I would. Yeah, it's very interesting.

I relate to that too. Finding a lot of joy in the journey of the business side of things, the entrepreneur side of things that I sort of did was there just because of never having training in that area.

Totally. And I feel like, I mean, you've started multiple different. I was like, in awe when we first met. I was like, you have a practice and you have a training program. Like, this is literally the perfect marriage because it complements each other so well. I mean, I'm curious what made you like, I guess have both of those things. I mean, that's genius.

Mm. It was by accident. Like every, every good thing is right. No, but really, I just, you know, my passion for emdr. And so I, I learned EMDR and I started consulting and I had the opportunity to do some training with it and I used to contract for somebody else and do a bunch of that training. And then eventually it just became like I wanted to train all the people in my practice and so I just started my own training institute and having a vision for people learning how to treat trauma really well. And even beyond that, I mean, there's a lot of people that ask me, can you train our organization on how to be trauma informed and things like that. So it was more need based. But then, yeah, they work very nicely together and it gives opportunities for our therapists to work in both places and to be trained all kind of the same and have the same language, a lot of those things.

So.

But I, I did not set out as some grand vision scheme of it. It just sort of evolves cool though,

and you see a need and then you can have that creativity and put your mind to it. You know, I think that's one of the biggest benefits of being an entrepreneur and kind of noticing all those different facets is you can see a need and you can go out and get it. You know, like it's being able to have that vision. Not everybody has that. And so I think it's cool that you were able to capture that and make it into a business plan that's sustainable again. It's not something you see every day. So definitely has inspired our organization for sure. As you know. Like, I know one of your consultants is our director of programming. And just the things that we've, I don't know, come together on and been able to collaborate on has been so awesome and creating this internal training and making sure everyone's trauma informed. Like we never paid attention that, that detailed before. And so I just, you know, that was inspired by you guys 100%. So yeah, that was awesome.

Ah, thanks for that. I do think, yeah, that's part of the idea of this whole podcast. Right? What are the ideas out there? What if we start talking about this journey? What if we start talking about how we're all trying to address mental health in our communities? I really believe that entrepreneurs hold the key to solving this crisis because they're out of the box thinkers and they have these new ideas, kind of like your nutrition idea integrated into mental health and physical health. I love all that because we are whole people. We're not just brains or just bodies, which I do think early on that's how the trainings of all different disciplines were sort of split. You know, the brain is different than the body.

I mean, even if you're looking just in our field like it was substance abuse only or mental health only, I'm like, it's not a thing. Like that's, that's just not a thing. Like being able to assess for the whole thing is so important. So we're not pigeonholing ourselves into one or the other. But it is interesting. I think just the general population is sort of wired that way that we don't, we don't look at anything right until we need to get fixed. Like, you don't go to physical therapy unless you have an injury. But does anybody train their body to not get the injury? I don't know. Right. Like you only get. You're addressing your nutrition when you get diagnosed with diabetes. But did we ever think, what is this food doing to fuel my brain and body and how does that impact my day to day experiences? Like I Just don't know that people are aware. And again, at no fault of their own. It's just, it's not out there. People don't talk about it enough. We don't recognize that there are things that we might be doing without our knowledge or knowing the impact on us. And if we can learn that again, it can empower us. It can give us choice back. And I think that's half the battle is we get sick and then we feel like we don't have a choice. Right. People that I tend to see in Iop, they don't have a choice anymore. They can't get out of bed, they can't go to work. They don't have a choice but to go on fmla. That sucks. To get to a point where the choice is taken from you. That is what I'm trying to address here. That's what I want to point us at. Instead of catching you when you're. You're at your lowest, let's identify what our best is. You know, if. When I ask my clients a lot of times, like, what is it that you want? What is your goal? Most of them, they say, I want to be less depressed and I want to think less terribly. I'm like, is that what good is? Is that what better sounds like now? Like, we don't even know the definition of good anymore. We just know what we want to avoid. And we live in a place of avoidance so frequently that we don't even know what we're working towards. We wouldn't even know if it hit us in the face. What does health, what does mental health wellness look like? I don't know if we even know, you know, like, I don't know if people know if we ask that question. And I would love to hear more of if we could come together on that. I think that would be amazing. I think that would just change. I mean, when you talk about the stigma and a crisis, I don't know. A crisis would exist if we were all approaching it that way. Stop avoiding this and move towards what it is that we want. Let's provide this for people.

I agree. I was, I was thinking the other day too. Yeah. How do you define mental wellness?

Right.

What is that definition? And we spend so much time, we talk about mental health, but it often has the connotation of the diagnoses, which are more based on deficits instead of strengths. And I like the term mental wellness, but I agree with you. I don't think that very many people would have a collective definition that would Match like that means different things to different people. And I love your focus on thriving or on happiness. Like, what do you have? What pieces do you have in your life that are just things that bring you enjoyment? They're good things in your life.

Right.

And moving toward those, I mean, I think it's about relationships. It's about physical health and well being. It's about spirituality. Sometimes for some people, it's not like

we have to have the same definition. Like that will maybe look different for people. But I think the place where we get caught is one, we're not asking the question, and two, we don't have a belief in ourselves that we can get it. So then we just don't until we have to. What if we were asking the question and we actually believe that we can get it and have a support system and a structure and infrastructure in our life that supports that? Again, that would be the thing that empowers us, right? Again, I don't know that we're asking that question. And I don't know if we know the answer. And if we did, I don't know if we think we can get it. Most people, I feel and I notice, don't know the answer because they're not willing to investigate it because they already think they can't have it. So then they just kind of stay until again, we have to kind of fix something. Pushing past that, I think that's something else that I think sets us apart. And I think you guys as well is like, we're not trying to get you back to baseline. Like, I don't, I don't want you just getting back to functioning like that might be the first goal. Right. But what's, what's life after functioning like? I hope you're just functioning all the time, but that's where that word thriving comes from. I want you to be thriving, whatever your definition, but I want you to be thriving not just making it through each day or, you know, making it to the end. What are we working for? We all talk about longevity. I want to live longer. It's like, do you or do you want to be happy when you're living a long life? Sounds wonderful if you like it, right?

Very much so. I think about this whole thing, though, the way that this is set up, if we really are going to invest in preventive mental wellness, however we want to define that right now, the model is we have to have something wrong with you for insurance payment to cover it. So that very payment structure and system is what all of our programs are Built around, which is the exact opposite direction of what you're talking about, 100%.

So something I would love to investigate is one, can we create a CPC code that's not associated with the diagnosis? Or two, can we create a different governmental infrastructure that doesn't support or primarily focus on treatment once you get to that point, can we, and I don't even, to be honest, love the word preventative. How about just what you want? And if you're focusing so much on that, then red flags pop up faster that, you know, oh, wait a minute, this isn't going the right way. Right. Or the way that I intended. And being able to pivot the word preventative to me sounds again, like we're just trying to stop something from happening. True versus this is the thing I'm shooting for. And these are the red flags that I know are not supporting that. That's what tells me I need to change something. As opposed to don't eat too much sugar or you know, don't stay in bed too long or, you know what I mean? But focusing on, maybe fruit's a cool thing to eat. I don't know, maybe moving first thing in the morning might help me start my day or, you know, silly things like that. I don't know, does it have to be something that we pay for or is it a community based thing? I don't know. But that's, I guess where like the business infrastructure comes from. Right? Because at least from us, you know, we know what, what brings us revenue. Right? We know it can support the business. And if we can get that to a place where it's sustainable, which it now is, it gives you opportunity as a business person to create these other opportunities that, that maybe aren't the thing that are bringing you money that's not meant to make profit, but is a value proposition for the community. And if you're enrolled in these things or you're a part, a member of this or whatever you want to call it, we also got you if you, if you're struggling. Right. We also have that. But let's, let's build this first. I would love to be able to help anybody or just meet them, but you know, can that, can that look different than this whole setup that we have of continuum of care, where even the very basic continuum is a diagnosis. Right.

Well, and then that's fascinating because what you're really talking about is community engagement, right? If you're just meeting people, and by definition you meet good people in your life, ideas and things start to evolve and grow, then that is health and that is mental health.

Right. I mean, isn't that like the number one indicator of depression is not having social interaction? Isn't that like a statistic? I mean, I firmly believe that. I mean, that's the biggest concern I have when I discharge somebody from the level of care that I tend to treat is they don't have a social support network. And that is the number one thing that really helps them have something to look forward to, have somebody to do things with, have somebody to bounce things off of, have somebody to compare to of like, hey, that's a good idea. I think I should do that too.

Right?

But if we don't have that, then, yeah, you're kind of just stuck in your own head thinking the same things that you thought that might not be beneficial. And then we kind of get stuck, you know, and then that's when we need things like iop, which gives you that social atmosphere. Atmosphere. But then it's gone after you discharge and you're better. So can we create a community in some capacity? I don't know what that would look like where anybody can come and we're all here for a mutual purpose, which, you know, Starbucks is coffee. But maybe we have another thing going on that's just community, you know, I don't know. I don't know what that would look like, but I think that would be a really good step.

Yeah, I like that idea. I also like your idea of a CPT code that isn't necessarily around a diagnosis.

You never know. Pretty sure that's a thing. I gotta look into it, though.

I mean, I think. I think those are all great things. And I think most people acknowledge that mental health care as it stands, doesn't have long term sustainability and certainly cannot meet the needs for the people that need to access it.

We agree on that.

So something has to change, right? And it comes from ideas. Like, I never thought about a CPT code that didn't have to be associated with a diagnosis. That never occurred to me. Rachel. I love that doesn't exist yet.

But hey, you never know.

I mean, why not, right?

But that's. That's exactly what I think you're asking. It's like, what do we need to do that doesn't exist yet? A lot of times my CFO always jokes, like I always say, think outside the box, think outside the box. And he's like, get rid of the box. Like, just what's in need? Yeah. He's like, stop thinking about that. Like, just what is it? Because we're so focused on the box, what already exists. Like, don't even think about that. Like blank slate. What is it that we need? I think so often we just iterate the same thing over and over in different ways, thinking it's this grand idea when in reality it got the same barriers that it did before, you know, So I don't know, we have to think outside the box. And I guess that's the whole point of this, right? Is thinking about a way of creating something without a box and can we put more like minded individuals in the same room to come up with something like that? That. And first is the idea and that's the infrastructure around it, which is where I think entrepreneurs really come in to play is it's first the creativity and then it's can I build an infrastructure that's sustainable? Right? Because like if it's not, then it's just an idea, right? I forget what book I read this in, but it's. There's a difference between vision and visions, right? Do you have a vision that I can, can create something from or am I just thinking about a bunch of different things that are not possible or won't be? That's where, you know, you can make that difference and we can make that difference.

Definitely. And it takes all of us. I mean I am more and more convinced of that. There is no us and them. It is all together, all of us needed.

I don't know that everybody agrees. I agree. I don't know that I find that as many places as I would like. I definitely think it tends to be like a. I don't know, even in our field, to be honest, it sometimes feels like it's a block of referrals or no, I'm not going to help you with these things. And it's just kind of crazy to me when that happens because I'm like, wait a minute, I thought we were all on this, in this mission of helping people and getting them connected. And I don't know. So sometimes I am concerned of can we overcome that? I hope we can. I hope. I think this is where that starts, right? Is getting again like minded people together where we can overcome that kind of infrastructure that's maybe created in some places.

Yeah, well. And I think for me it has to do with the purpose and the why and the mission, right. Of what we're doing. Are we doing this because we are collecting collectively, trying to help our communities thrive, to use your word, or are we doing this because we just are this silo, little pocket and we want to make sure that our little practice is successful. There's nothing wrong with that, but there are two different perspectives. And so the one can be about scarcity, like protecting what's mine. The other is a little more like we're all on the same team.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Because I guess I come from a growth mindset of I want to reach as many people as possible, whether that people who need us or people who want to collaborate with us. And to your point, if somebody doesn't have a growth mindset, which is not wrong, I see why that might be the perspective of, yes, I need to keep my tight knit group and referral sources and everything. And that could seem a threat as opposed to a collaborative relationship. So that's very good perspective. Good point.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting to see. I'm wondering, well, you kind of answered this a little bit, but I want to ask it more formally if you could change anything about mental health treatment, what would that be?

Oh my goodness. That it's not siloed into just mental health treatment. I don't think every mental health provider should try to be an expert in all things. So let me just preface it by saying that I do think every mental health expert. I would love for all healthcare providers to be experts in assessing the beginnings of most things to at least trigger us for when we need referrals outside of just the mental health space. I think that's even where I came from very early in my career was you assess for the symptoms, right? You assess for what would meet a diagnosis and the dsm. And that's what I focused on. If you just focus on that, you miss the facts that this client might be dehydrated and that's why their heart's skipping a beat. It's not anxiety at all. And that to me is kind of mind blowing when you think about it, that you could miss something like that. And that's a very silly example. But point being, if we're not assessing these other realms, that might not be your specialty. I feel like that's a disservice to that client. And I guess that would be the thing I would change is if we could get either more aware, more trained in other things that could be influencing what we tend to be focused on. I think that would be really helpful. Not that that person doesn't need mental health treatment, but we, similar to iop, could get it done a lot faster if we had a collaborative approach where other things were probably put in place at the same Time as opposed to treat the mental health first, then you start going to move more and then you start eating better. I think they need to be a little bit more closely knit as opposed to one and one and then the next. Similar to treat the substance use disorder first, then you treat the trauma. Then you know that doesn't work right. And I don't think it works with the other things either. So I guess, long winded answer. It wouldn't necessarily be just the treatment. It would be the assessment of what the need is and then treating that.

Wow, that's very cool. A very integrated approach, really.

That's my life goal. I want to create a Don't tell anybody except you're about to. I want to create a Thrive score where anybody who comes to see us, we assess all realms and your score indicates where maybe you should start first. But this is your close second. And this is important too. And it kind of gives you a more thorough report of these, of the conceptualization, which again, we were trained in in grad school of how to conceptualize through the CBT model. But were we trained to conceptualize the whole person? I don't know what that, what that actually looks like for a lot of people.

That's food for thought. That could be a whole other podcast. Maybe we need to have your Thrive Score idea on another podcast.

Come back to me in 2024. That's my 2020. One of my personal 2024 goals.

That's fantastic.

Whatever that is.

Oh my gosh. Well, it has been so amazing to talk with you. Our time is up for today, but is there any last thought that you would like to leave with people about mental health entrepreneurship scenario today? Any of those things?

Oh, gosh, I should have prepped for that. Get rid of the box and hear what other people's thoughts are and imagine what we could do if we all came together on those Sky's the limit mic drop.

I love it. Well, thanks for being here, Rachel. It was awesome to chat with you.