Benefits of Acupuncture for Addiction Treatment | Dr. Libby Stuyt of the National Acupuncture Detoxification Association (NADA)

So this protocol was developed over time using Eastern and western medicine theories and the patient's responses. And so there are these five points and it's a standardized protocol. We call it ACU Detox or ACU Wellness, because it really isn't acupuncture. You're not diagnosing the person, you're not determining the points. You're just using the standardized protocol. And I actually have used it to detect somebody off of heroin, which, you know, initially I thought, how can that possibly work? But the treatment program I was running, you had to be sober when you came in. And most people were sitting in jail getting sober, coming in. But because of the opiate epidemic, we started seeing people coming in and full blown opiate withdrawal. And I've tried it and it actually works.

Welcome to the Mental Health Entrepreneur Podcast. We are here to inspire creative ideas and connections for entrepreneurs and advocates working to address our mental health crisis. As you listen, I hope you will experience new ideas and motivation to innovate in your business, your community, and in your life. Welcome back, everyone to the Mental Health Entrepreneur Podcast. I'm Rachel Harrison, your host, and we are going to talk today about a unique treatment for addiction from Dr. Libby Stout. Dr. Stout is a board certified psychiatrist in addiction. She has run treatment programs using complementary approaches such as five point ear acupuncture called nada, bst, which is brain synchronization therapy. And she currently trains and speaks in professional circles. Libby, it is great to have you with us.

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

So let's talk about you for a moment. How did you get started in the addiction field?

That's a really long story, but I was in medical school and loved everything. I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do. And the chair of psychiatry was a smart guy and he said, just sign up with us and we'll let you do a rotating internship and then you can rotate through all those things as an intern and. And if you decide you prefer something else, you can transfer. And so I did. So I rotated through ob, gyn, pediatrics, internal medicine, family medicine, and then I did psychiatry. And the intern job was substance abuse. And I had never had any experience with that because I didn't have any family history. I didn't really know anything about it. I kind of had the image of the skid row drunk. And I just fell in love with it because to me, it was the first time ever I was in a medical field where you're not responsible for them getting better. You're teaching Them how to get better. And then they choose to then use the skills you use or not. And your job is to encourage them to use the skills. And I just really liked that. So that's how I ended up staying. And. And then I have. My whole career has been really been devoted to behavioral health, addiction, psychiatry.

Right.

So I've been doing that now for 33, starting 34 years.

Wow. And that's saying something, because a lot of people that I have talked to over the years as a therapist myself, have gotten burned out in the addiction field specifically. It can be difficult work, I agree.

But it's very rewarding because when people really finally get it, I have seen so many people and I believe are fully recovered. But then you have to understand that fully recovered doesn't mean you can use the substance again. You can't ever use that substance again. You learn alternative ways to live your life without using those substances.

Yeah, yeah. And so how did you bring in some of these complementary approaches? Let's go back to that five point ear acupuncture. How did you come across that?

Well, that was a very interesting thing too, because I had come from Texas to Colorado. So I came back to my roots in 1999 to become the medical director of a program that was at the state hospital, which is like kind of phenomenal. Doesn't exist anywhere in the country. 90 day inpatient treatment program for people with dual disorders. So they have mental health and substance abuse problems. And I came to make that program tobacco free. And so we did. We made it tobacco free in 2000.

Wow.

Ever since. Because I do believe you have to address all addictions at the same time in order to have the best outcomes. And I think that's really backed by science. And so anyway, I went to an American Academy of Addiction Psychiatry meeting in December of 1999. So just before we went tobacco free, January of 1, and Alan Leischner, who was the head of NIDA at the time, was standing around in the conference saying, I've just been to Yale. I've just seen this remarkable treatment that should be available in all treatment programs. We're saying, well, what is it? And he said, well, they call it nada. It stands for the National Acupuncture Detoxification association and needles. Five needles in each year. And so we're all very fascinated. But then I come back to Colorado and the next day this medical acupuncturist called me and said, why are you not using the NADA protocol in your program? And I went, that's so bizarre. I just learned about it. And then she said, well, we're having Michael Smith, who set up the organization, coming out to Denver next week, and he's going to be talking to the Milehow Council. Why don't you have him come talk to the state hospital? So we did. And of course, it was a CME talk for physicians, mostly psychiatrists. Nobody was interested. What he did was he needled the administrators and the administrators said, ooh, we really need to get this here. This is really excellent. And so we got trained and I started using it. Then I, of course, was very skeptical because I'm a Western trained scientist, but I knew I would have to prove to myself that it actually did something. So I started collecting a lot of data and I've actually published on our experience in several cases because I initially was very skeptical, but I became totally sold. This is like a phenomenal treatment that's not standalone. You cannot use it by itself. And it actually has support by SAMHSA. So if you look at tip 45, which is one of the tips that SAMHSA puts out, there's a section in there about complementary treatment. And so it's basically an evidence based adjunctive treatment for substance use. But it's also been found to be a really wonderful treatment for everyone. You don't have to have substance abuse problems because it's really a stress reliever and it's a stabilization tool. I have trained many people who use EMDR who then use this protocol either before a treatment or after a treatment with emdr. So, you know, one of the first things working with trauma is you have to have stabilization skills.

Yes, you do.

This is one of the most profound ways to help people learn stabilization skills. Because even if they've never sat still, when you get 10 needles in your ears, you sit still.

You're gonna sit still. Yeah.

There is this immediate benefit. And so what research is showing is that it really is helpful in engaging people and retaining them in treatment. It really helps with the dynamics between the provider and the person receiving the treatment. To me, in psychiatric terms, it's like the best thing to deal with transference and countertransference.

Oh.

Because it's an energetic treatment. So it's an energetic phenomenon. And when you're putting the needles in, it's not just the needles, it's what your intention is. And so many people ask, well, what is this going to do for me? And you can't really tell them because in Chinese medicine, and that's a big part of the training is understanding the difference between Western and Eastern approaches to medicine. In Chinese medicine, they believe that you're energized by this life force energy called qi. And when you have any problems at all, your qi is diminished and stagnant. And so the purpose of acupuncture is to nourish your qi and to get it moving. But your body decides. So it's your own body that decides what it is you need to benefit from. Is one of the things I initially was very skeptical about.

Yeah.

Because the trainer that trained me was saying, this does exactly what you needed to do. Whatever you needed to do it. Does it. And I said, well, we don't have any medication that does that, nor do

we research things like that. Like, how do you quantify that in a research study?

Right, exactly. But over my time now, because I started using it in 2000, I've used it ever since.

Wow.

And I've trained lots of people. I worked really hard to get a bill passed in Colorado in 2013 that allowed licensed behavioral health people to do this, because before that, it was just physicians and acupuncturists who could use these needles. And then we have subsequently had two separate bills, increasing that to now in 2021. We now have any professional. So anybody who has a profession can be trained in this. And we have trained a lot of peer coaches. And so they're, like, phenomenal at this because, you know, they're newly in recovery. It gives them a whole lot of efficacy. Like, you know, they now have a job where they can actually help people. And it's very low cost. You know, treatment costs a little less than a dollar, the needles and the supplies that you need. So really, the only investment is really the training. And there are two organizations now. And I'm sad to hear that you don't know anybody in Maryland doing this, because the National Acupuncture Detoxification association headquarters are in Bowie.

Oh.

Now, this is one of the organizations that does trainings. And the other one that I'm now doing trainings for is called POCA, or People's Organization or Community Acupuncture.

Okay.

So these are two trainings nationally, two national organizations, they're located mostly, I think, in Oregon who do trainings. And the states all differ in terms of their laws. And it depends on a lot of it is based on heavy acupuncturists. Interestingly, in Hawaii, the only people that can do this are acupuncturists, not even physicians.

Oh, wow.

In California, it can be physicians and acupuncturists. It's kind of the states where there's a lot of acupuncturists. It has been more resistant to allowing this to be used by other people, which is really kind of sad because what people are finding out in Colorado, the acupuncturist anyway, are. It really increases their business because people come in, they get just five points and they feel really great. And then they want you to fix everything else. And I have to say, well, I can't do that. That's not in my scope of practice. But I can refer you to an acupuncturist. And so a lot more people are seeing acupuncturist, I think, as a result of this protocol.

Right, right. That makes perfect sense to me. I'm going to go research and find out what the laws are here. That's very curious.

Yeah. I am not really clear on Maryland, what the laws are. I know that I've been working with many states to get their laws changed. I was successful in Utah to get the laws changed to now they have the ability for licensed behavioral health people. But I think they're going to even try to do another law next year because they're realizing there's still not enough people. Because this is something that everybody should be have access to. I mean, some of the most powerful places I've seen it used in are needle exchanges. And that's where I've seen real magic happen, because people are coming in to exchange their needles, you know, that they're using for their drugs, and then they can get a treatment in a room in that facility. And I've been in those rooms where people are sitting there with needles in their ears. And they've got peer coaches in the room that are volunteering. And the people are saying, how can I get off this stuff? And then they start saying, one peer coach says, well, I did methadone and this is how I did it. And this is where you go. I did buprenorphine, and this is how you do it. And this is where you go. Or I went to treatment, and this is a treatment program you can go to. And so that's like magic. And it's just from putting needles in people's ears, which is pretty cool.

It is pretty cool. So what are some of those underpinnings you kind of mentioned that this has been in Chinese medicine for how long did you say?

Well, acupuncture has been around for centuries. The use of ear acupuncture is relatively recent. That was discovered basically in the 1950s by a neurologist in France who discovered that you could treat the entire body in the ear. And so there are auricular acupuncturists who use lots of points. But then this was developed in the 1970s, and that was because of a really severe opiate epidemic that was happening in this country. But we really never heard about it because it was really affecting black and brown people. And it was in the Bronx in New York, and there were two factions, the Young Lords, Hispanic folks mostly, had come from Puerto Rico, and the Black Panthers, who were African Americans who had come from the south to live in New York. And so they were living in this very poor area of New York City. And they have a hospital there called Lincoln Hospital that they identified as the butcher shop because they were not getting really good health care. And there were rats in the emergency room, and there were all kinds of things going on. And they then kind of staged the takeover of the hospital, a non violent one, where they were demanding health care rights. And at the same time, in China, there was a neurosurgeon who he was doing neurosurgery, but he was using ear acupuncture as a preoperative analgesia agent to help people calm down, relax before he did surgery. And he made the observation that people who were addicted to heroin or opium did not have withdrawal when they were in the hospital. So he actually recruited people to come, and he did a study where he showed that he could detox people off of heroin and opium using ear acupuncture.

Wow.

So he published this. Then it got to be an article in the New York Times. And so these groups, the Young Lords and the Black Panthers, read about that in the New York Times and then wanted to know why they couldn't have this as well. Because what had happened at that time, Lincoln Hospital actually became one of the first sites for methadone maintenance. Methadone was discovered in the 1960s, and then they started using it as a maintenance drug. And the people that were receiving it were very skeptical, believing, you know, that the government was trying to control them. And so they weren't really happy with that treatment. And so they actually then together, the people that worked in the program, and some of them went to get trained in acupuncture, and they developed this protocol. And so this protocol was developed over time using Eastern and Western medicine theories and the patient's responses. And so there are these five points, and it's a standardized protocol. That's how it can get acupuncture laws. Because it's not really acupuncture. In fact, we don't even use that word. We call it acute tax or ACU wellness, because it really isn't acupuncture. You're not diagnosing the person, you're not determining the points. You're just using the standardized protocol. And I actually have used it to detect somebody off of heroin, which, you know, initially I thought, how can that possibly work? But the treatment program I was running, you had to be sober when you came in. And most people were sitting in jail getting sober, coming in. But because of the opiate epidemic, we started seeing people coming in and full blown opioid withdrawal. And I've tried it and it actually works. So some of the stuff I've published on is the experience that we got what it helps with the most. And so it really helps the most, like I said, with retention participation and retention in treatment. The more people get it, the more longer they stay in treatment, the more open they are to the other things that they're learning in treatment. But the other things that are really powerful is it helps a lot with anger, so basically affects regulation, so helps with fear, anxiety, depression. It just helps. It's a really significant aid.

Wow. I mean, well, that affect tolerance piece is what we spend a lot of time on in therapy, right? So that's a big. A big piece. And I think that's also often what is triggering for people and addictions, right? It's feelings about things that have happened or things that they're going through. So that's pretty profound. And so this is done every single time that they're seen. It's not just a once and you're done.

Right. So basically what the person who trained me told me was that it works immediately, but in order for it to last, you need to do it regularly. And so that's what we set up in the treatment program I ran. We offered it five days a week. And that's really awesome if you can do that in a treatment program. But therapists that I've trained, they'll offer it once a week, either before or after or even during a session. And then you can use beads or seeds as acupressure that you put on after you take the needles out. And then they can keep them on for the week and then come back and get it again. Most of the research, if you're trying to show a change, like there has been some studies on using ear acupuncture for smoking cessation, it shows that you kind of need to have it at least three times a week. And it's not a standalone treatment. Again, it has to be with education and counseling and all the other components which help people really resolve. And that was what I initially told all my patients it was for because I again, skeptical. I didn't know what it would do. I said, the reason we're doing this is to help you to quit smoking, because now you can't smoke anymore. And it really did help with that a lot. So people who were really angry that they couldn't smoke, they would get a treatment, and then the cravings would go away. We had it kind of on demand, so people, if they wanted extra, they could get it. And that's the beauty of having an inpatient setting where you have all your staff from brain.

Right.

And right now, I'm really working very hard trying to get it into jails and prisons, because one of the really interesting things about this protocol is even though it was developed in the United States, in New York, it's used more in the rest of the world than it is in the United States. And most of the Scandinavian countries have trained an incredible number of people. And it's in most of the prisons in the UK and Northern Ireland and Norway and Denmark. So they're using it in prisons because they find that it really helps decrease violence.

I mean, that's phenomenal.

We have a sheriff in Summit County, Colorado. There's a therapist who works for him who I'm working with to become a trainer, and he has gotten Acudetox and EMDR into the jail, and they're having really great results. So, you know, the jail is a very traumatic place.

Yes, it is.

And most people that are in there already have a lot of trauma. You know, they discovered after 911 that this was a really great tool to help with trauma. I think Bessel von der Croak even talks about that, that the number one thing people identified as being helpful after 911 was acupuncture. And it was really this standardized protocol, because that's what they were offering. And people were filling up rooms where they would come in and just sit there for 30 minutes and get a treatment and then feel much better. And so even though it's not a standalone treatment for treating trauma, I believe it can be a standalone treatment to prevent post traumatic stress disorder. Because what we do know about PTSD is the way that is really guaranteed to happen is if you don't sleep after a trauma and you don't digest those memories and incorporate them and get them assimilated, so that it goes into your long term memory as opposed to being stuck in your hippocampus. And the number one thing that this really helps with in those people is it helps people sleep. So people in substance abuse treatment, that's their biggest complaint, they can't sleep because the substances they were using to help them get to sleep, they can't use anymore. And so this is one of the biggest things we saw was helping people sleep.

That's phenomenal. Is there a paper or anything going to be published out of this combination of the Accudepox and emdr?

I could send you the article that Gabe Greenwald wrote. And yeah, so they're actually studying it right now. It hasn't been a year yet. So they don't really have all the data. I think they do have the data on emdr, but they don't have the data yet on, on the Acudetox. And the reason the Acudetox is so I think a desirable thing to use is you don't have to have a license, you don't have to have a master's level or higher, which you have to have in order to do EMDR for sure. That's why we actually are doing what we call brain synchronization therapy. And that actually came out of a trainer in the Springs. I don't know if you know him, John Hartung, he is a EMDR trainer in Colorado Springs. And he designed this thing that he calls brain synchronization therapy that he uses around the world to train people how to do basically EMDR light. So it's like emdr, but it's softer, slower, gentler. And so I actually took a training from him. Again, that was when I was really skeptical. But I became a really strong believer because I took some of my staff into that training and they just have bachelors, you know, they're not masters. Because the state hospital couldn't afford to hire all these people with a lot of credentials. And they became very effective trauma treaters. I mean, it was amazing. And so I took this training and then I ended up paying him three times to come down and train my staff over several years. Because, you know, people get trained in things and then they leave. And so at one point he said he was tired of coming down, he was just going to make us trainers. So so my co therapist was our trauma therapist at my treatment program. And so we have been now doing these trainings now for like 10 years. And I'm hoping that he's trained some other people to do this because we're a very small number. We just finished a training and. And it's mostly all therapists. It was 19 people. And they're all people who are working on their masters. So they will be able to do emdr, but this is something they can do before they actually get that credential. And we've actually trained quite a few EMDR therapists because it's a lot of self regulation skills. So in the training we teach heart math and then tapping like John Hart, like EFT tapping. Yeah. And then tapas, which is Elizabeth Tapas plumbing. So we teach those as skills to help regulate. So keep somebody in their window. We don't want anybody to abreact. And that's because, you know, I have worked with a lot of clients who have had EMDR and say they will never ever do it again. That was because they had an abreaction. And sadly that was either not a well trained therapist or somebody who wasn't really recognizing that they were outside their window. So we do a lot of training on keeping in the window and what to do when they get outside their son's window and then a lot of training on dissociation as well. It's just been really, really effective and very cool to do.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's what I was thinking when you were talking about this ear acupuncture is that it was keeping people in their window of tolerance. And we have a lot of non therapists that listen to this podcast. Basically, window of tolerance is that place where you feel like you can handle anything. You're kind of in a relaxed place, you can handle anything, you're not overly stressed or kind of what we would call hypoaroused, which kind of like shut down. So that window of tolerance is kind of what we're talking about there. So it sounds like your acupuncture is very helpful for setting the stage of someone being in their window of tolerance. That's kind of what I was hearing as you were talking about that.

That's absolutely true. And yes. And so if you, you know, you know about heart math and heart brain coherence, I had this incredible experience because when I very first got the HeartMath hardware software for my staff to use in the program, pretty much everybody was fully incoherent. You know, they're in the red. So Fort Carson, which is in Colorado Springs, this is several years ago, they actually had a thing in the paper about we're having all these people coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan. If anybody has any things they can suggest we're open to anything. So I called him and I said, well, I have my little dog and pony show I could come and talk to you about. And so I went and Talked to about 25 therapists that are at the hospital there. And I first talked about NADA and I put needles in everybody's ears, and they all got a treatment. And then I talked about heart math, and I got the computer out. I had people start hooking up, everybody 100% coherent. And I went, oh, my gosh, you've got the most healthy staff I've ever seen. And then I thought, wait a minute. I just put Nita. And that's what I found. If you have somebody who really is struggling, like with the biofeedback, and they can't seem to figure out how to become coherent, just put needles in their ears and they become coherent immediately.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Well, I love that. Unfortunately, we are just about out of time. But if there's kind of one thing that you could say to our audience about anything, really, what would it be? What would be your words of wisdom or your advice or your inspiration?

I would just encourage people to look into this. You can go to the NADA organization, the website is www.acudetox.com, or the POCA organization. And so that's P O C A. So to learn more about it, you just have to know what your state laws are. And there are more and more states allowing this. You know, like Wyoming right now. Pretty much anybody can be trained. It just depends on the state. But I really encourage people to look into it.

Yeah, And I love that in states where it's allowed, anyone can access this. Anyone can do it and be trained in it. So that really opens up a lot of options for people to get treated when they're on waiting lists, to get into programs and things like that. So it's fabulous from that perspective, too. Thank you so much for being here, Libby. It was truly a pleasure. You are a wealth of knowledge. I hope people check out what you're talking about because you've got a lot of great experience. So thank you.

Thank you.

Hey, everyone. Before we go, I wanted to mention a podcast that I am loving right now. It is the Back Porch Bestie. I love this podcast because it gets pretty real pretty quickly. There's a lot in there that Kasey and Kelsey share about their own personal growth, and they have such great guests on there that really share their own journeys as well. Listen to the trailer now. Then head to the Show Notes to find the show's link and subscribe. I think you'll like it too.

So, Kelsey. So, Casey, serious question. Did you ever think you would be here?

No, I didn't. And by here, do you mean, like,

literally right here in this moment, recording a podcast about a book that you are in?

No, absolutely not.

Like running this business in the way that you are. Building a house, Having seven people in the house we're currently living in.

Oh.

In a new pottery business and doing consulting. Did you ever think that you would be here? No.

I think that there's pieces of me that always have wanted to be here, but I didn't know. I kind of just stumbled across it back two years ago. Our conversation. It just unraveled a thread.

Yeah.

So you think you had the potential all along you just needed.

Yeah, I just needed somebody to believe in me.

Oh, well, I think I'm the opposite. You know, like, always out looking for more, looking for the next thing, like doing this, doing that, and, you know, all of. All of it. And then I met you, and you slowed me down substantially.

Yeah, you're a cliff jumper, and I'm more of like a. A puddle jumper.

I don't even think you're a puddle jumper. I think you're like a puddle viewer. Let me see where the rocks are. Oh, there's a minnow. See it?

But it protects me. Yeah.

What?

I don't know myself.

What? Are you going to hurt yourself?

Maybe jumping off that cliff. I might break my neck.

You'd be, like, a little roly poly. Like, just curl up in a ball and roll down the hill.

Pew.

Oh, God. So for real, how does it feel to be a little bit more like maybe a heel jumper now?

Yeah, I mean, I like it more because it makes me more confident and feel competent that when I do jump off the hill, that I land on both feet, and if I don't land on my feet, I figure it out, Right?

Yeah. And I think you've helped me, because now when I am jumping off things, I'm not just jumping off cliffs just to say that I did it. I'm jumping off because there's joy there. Hi, I'm Casey, and right here beside me is Kelsey. We are licensed professional counselors, mothers, entrepreneurs. Oh, and besties. We know firsthand what it's like to wake up one day and think, how in the heck did I wind up here?

Through our own journeys of self discovery, we found that joy is something that has to be pursued through internal work. Now we are on a mission to help women from all walks of life understand themselves more so they can have real lasting joy.

Join us every Thursday to hear fun and insightful interviews with experts who can point you toward self discovery and fulfillment.