The Power Of Partnerships In Creating A Safer Community | Katie Cashman of Change the Conversation

Sometimes it's hard to measure. Everybody wants outcomes and performance measures and all that great stuff. Of course you need that to have that funding. But you never know what is that moment in time when it's going to make a difference for that client. And we say that a lot in prevention work. Like, we don't know that pebble that we throw the ripple effect that it's going to have and feel the same exact way about the counseling grants program. You know, we get folks that have been in therapy two or three or four times. You know, they may not have been ready. They may not have been ready to start their journey before, and they are now. We have a client on our counseling era program that's 76 years old and had not talked to anybody about her trauma until after her husband passed away. It's never too late. It's never too late to start that journey.

Welcome to the Mental Health Entrepreneur Podcast. We are here to inspire creative ideas and connections for entrepreneurs and advocates working to address our mental health crisis. As you listen, I hope you will experience new ideas and motivation to innovate in your business, your community, and in your life. Welcome back, everyone, to the Mental Health Entrepreneur Podcast. Today we are talking with Katie Cashman, who is the executive director of Change the Conversation, which seeks to change the conversation about childhood sexual abuse. So just a note, on today's topic, we are going to be talking about that topic of child sexual abuse. And if that is something that is sensitive for you or a potential trigger for you, then you may or may not want to listen to the rest of this interview. There will not be any specific cases or details mentioned, just the topic in general. So welcome, Katie. I'm really glad to have you here today.

Thank you, Rachel. I'm excited to be here.

Well, let's dig in. Talk to me about Change the Conversation, which used to be called no More Stolen Childhoods, correct?

Absolutely. So no More Stolen Childhoods was founded in 2004, and it was actually founded by a survivor of child sexual abuse. He had experienced his abuse at a young age and did not disclose until later in life. And when he disclosed, he ultimately created this nonprofit organization and wrote a book by the same name called no More Stolen Childhoods that actually details his experience. And so our organization is getting ready to celebrate 20 years in existence. Yeah. And for us, you know, we rebranded in April of 2023 to change the conversation. And for us, that was very reflective of the wanting to change that narrative and wanting to break down the stigma and have conversations and help folks understand that talking about it doesn't make it happen, and not talking about it won't prevent it from happening. And so really, our goal is to. Our mission is to engage communities in the prevention of and healing from child sexual abuse. And we believe that part of that

is simply having the conversation, making it accessible, too. I know you do a lot of work in schools.

We do. So the bulk of our work these days is in schools. We do a lot of prevention work. You know, for us, we understand that being able to intervene is so critical and it's so important, but we wanted to start the step before that. And so for us, we believe that having these conversations with youth, having them with teachers, with administration, with people that are in positions of power, that can help to make systemic changes, will prevent further instances of child sexual abuse. And so we are currently in two public school districts looking to expand into more, as well as several private schools throughout Maryland as well. And essentially, we go into classrooms, health classrooms, and we talk to students about child sexual abuse. Everything from recognizing the signs, understanding grooming behavior, understanding what to do if you or friend has been impacted. We talk a lot about bystander intervention. And a huge topic that we talk about, not just for students, but pretty much everyone these days, is Internet safety and staying safe online. And that is a big area of interest, as you can imagine, not only for youth, but for parents.

Yeah, I think that's fantastic to start at the very neutral, generic conversation place where it's not necessarily happening, Although I imagine that sometimes it is happening when you're talking to people. But I think, too, from my understanding in the field, there's also just an element of secrecy that sort of breeds the availability of this. So not talking about sexuality, not talking about these things, can really be a place where abuse is more likely to happen 100%.

And we talk a lot with students and with parents and with professionals about the grooming behavior and how oftentimes the perpetrator is banking on the fact that there is secrecy and there aren't these conversations happening. And we know that, you know, those that are at even increased vulnerability to experience child sexual abuse, oftentimes there wasn't a conversation, and it wasn't until we were in the classroom or somebody else intervened that they even realized what was happening was considered abusive. We have unfortunately been in presentations where the student or a parent is learning in real time that what they experienced was abuse. And so you're absolutely right. So much of this is shrouded in secrecy. And oftentimes the person impacted has Felt so much shame and guilt, but they don't necessarily understand that it is abusive behavior.

And what is some of the inspiration of this work for you? What really inspires you?

You know, so I fell into this world accidentally when I was in college. I thought that I was going to be a child psychologist. I thought I wanted to work with children in that setting. And I had an internship my senior year. I graduated, got my undergraduate degree, and I could not find a job doing what I wanted to do without going back and getting my master's in clinical counseling or social work.

Sounds very familiar. I recognize that place in life. Yes.

And I didn't know at that time that I they wanted to commit to that. And so I found a job actually working at a medical adult daycare in my community. And it was funny because my father in law had been telling me for years, katie, you are so good with older folks. You're so good with, you know, your grandparents and you just have a knack for it. And I thought, there is no way. Well, I took this job, Rachel, and I fell in love. I fell in love with the geriatric population. So the first part of my career, the first six or seven years, it was the geriatric field. I worked in adult daycare, I worked in nursing home, I worked in an assisted living. And then by happenstance, I had a former colleague reach out to me that I had worked at the medical adult daycare with. And she said, we need a new adult daycare director. It was at a different organization. And she said you would be perfect for the job. And so I started my journey there. And within the first two years, there was an opening to take on a position that saw over all of our Carroll county programs. And so that wasn't just the geriatric programs, that was also our behavioral health programs. And much like falling in love with geriatrics, I was instantly hooked. I was instantly hooked in the behavioral health field. And really what inspired me was these folks that were coming for services that had been through some of the worst experiences of their lives, trusting us to help them get through that. And the vulnerability and the bravery that they showed and coming forward and sharing these stories and wanting to get the help that they so desired was just incredibly inspiring to me. And you know, folks will often say to me in this line of work, especially when I worked in domestic violence, like, were you a victim of domestic violence or were you a victim of abuse? And I'm very transparent in that I have not experienced that, but I have folks that are near and dear to my heart that have experienced that. And so for me, it was really about wanting to create the best space possible for folks to get the services that they needed. And this was around 2010, 2011, when we started to talk about trauma, informed care. And learning about it from that perspective was game changing for me. It was game changing for me to understand that trauma affects us in ways that I had never previously understood. And so, you know, to understand the effects that it has on your mind, on your body, and that these are things that truly shape you into who you are, really inspired me to want to create the best environment that I could and be a part of helping other people find that healing and what they were looking for. So totally by happenstance.

Yeah, yeah. And then that evolved into you joining Change the Conversation.

It did. So I was with my former organization for 12 years, and that organization provides regional services, so, you know, across several counties in Maryland. And it's very comprehensive in that provided case management, it provided counseling, it provided geriatric services, it provided psychiatric services. And so it gave me a really great understanding of what that behavioral health continuum of care looks like. We had great partners in the community that did other services that folks would often reach out to, whether that was dance therapy or art therapy or equine therapy. And for me, that holistic approach to healing from trauma really gave me the worldview that I have today. And so it was with that organization for 12 years and then learned about this opportunity. And it was funny, Rachel, because I had worked a mile from the headquarters of no More Soul and Childhoods for many years and had never heard of them. I never heard of the organization. Several of my colleagues that are clinicians, I had said, you know, have you heard of them? And folks hadn't. And so when I interviewed with this organization, the biggest thing that attracted me was just the opportunity, the opportunities that are here to make a difference, to intervene, to do good work for folks that is so critically needed. You know, having come from a very big organization where there's over a hundred employees and they have a very large budget to a very small organization, I was really inspired by the mission, and I was really inspired by the challenge. The challenge to help it grow and help develop programming and services that I knew the community needed.

And so what is some of the mission now of Change the Conversation? I know there was a name change around this, like, let's do early, early and focus on the conversation. But what are some of the things that you're hoping to accomplish?

Yeah. So I've Been here about two and a half years now. And when I started, there had been some programming in terms of our counseling grants program. But prior to me coming here, the bulk of the work that was done was really in the legislative and advocacy area. And so our organization for the first 12, 13 years was very founder led and that the founder would share his story and go out and give presentations. And in 2018, they hired their first executive director. And so my predecessor and really looked at the advocacy and the legislation opportunities that were out there. And so no More Soul and Childhoods was critical in helping to get the Sesame legislation passed, which looks at educators and those in schools and requires more stringent background checks and reference checks before they're doing that work. No More School in Childhoods did a lot of work a few years ago around the Child Victims act, which finally passed in 2023. And so when I came on, it was really at a pivotal time because the board of directors had just decided they were going to do their very first strategic plan, an official strategic plan. So we went through that process and what that process allowed us to do was really take a good look at the other organizations that are doing this work and the need that was out there. You know, as a really small nonprofit, you have to be thoughtful that you're not competing or trying to duplicate services that are out there. I mean, it's, it's so important. And for us, it was what need is out there that aligns with the mission that we're trying to achieve, that we can fulfill with the resources that we have? What that looks like today is really three categories. We have our prevention services, which offers turn the talk and professional development in our schools. We have our training programs. We offer about 25 different trainings throughout the year. And this can look at anything from Child Sexual Abuse 101 to a three part Internet Safety training. We talk about problematic sexual behavior. We talk about ACEs and positive childhood experiences. And so for us, those trainings are really critical for professionals for parents to really understand and take a little bit of a deeper dive into the child sexual abuse. And then our third category is our recovery services. And that for us looks like counseling grants. And we're incredibly proud of that program. It has grown exponentially this year. In 2023, we served six times the amount of funding that we did in 2022. And that equated to about $125,000 annually in counseling grants. And that allows any survivor who has been impacted by child sexual abuse to receive therapy at no or little Cost to them, we cover co pays, we cover deductibles, we cover private pay fees. For us, it has been something that we're incredibly proud of to be able

to provide as you should be. It sounds maybe slightly silly that that is as innovative as it is, but just to verify that this doesn't happen in our field. I don't know anyone doing this in the way that you're doing this. You know, sometimes people can go get Medicaid and get services that way and things like that, but you have very minimal, like you've removed a lot of the barriers for people to get access to the treatment that they need, the specific trauma treatment, like EMDR or something like that. And I just think it's fantastic that you're out there getting grants to, to actually give to individuals who need treatment and to pay for treatment. That is, it really is remarkable. And it's, it's simple, right? I mean, it's not rocket science, but the funding for that kind of thing really is complex and a bit of rocket science in the current mental health world that we live in right now.

Absolutely. And you know, that's so reaffirming for me to hear you say that, because one of the tenets of the counseling grants program was to remove as many barriers as we could and to increase access. And so I come from an organization that is an outpatient mental health clinic. And they were also fantastic at removing those barriers. But there were still things in place that they had to adhere to. They're licensed and, you know, they're accredited. And being a small organization, we have the flexibility and we have the opportunity to be able to make it as simple as we want to make it. And so I say that to say, when I came on, we completely revamped the process. And our goal was really to increase access and not just increase access in a way that we were seeing more people. We wanted to make sure that we were meeting the right people that needed the services. And so as you mentioned, the only component that you have to have, the only qualifier is that you were impacted by child sexual abuse. And so we removed financial barriers, we removed any sort of insurance or question about payer sources. For us, as long as the person was receiving the services and they were not being charged by the provider, you know, that was something that we wanted to support. We understand that you look at an income on a piece of paper and all that is, is a snapshot in time. And there's many reasons why people may look overqualified to receive their services. Because of their funding. But we don't know how that money is spent. We don't know what needs are in that person's life. And so for us, when we write our grants and we get our funding for that, we're very clear to talk about, you know, the. The simple qualifier is that you had to have experienced child sexual abuse. And you're right. We've been incredibly fortunate to have some wonderful funders in and around Frederick County, Carroll County, Baltimore county, that have supported this work. And just last year in November, we were awarded a grant through voca, the Victims of Crime act, through the governor's office, that specifically allocated $75,000 for our counseling grant program. So, again, reaffirming that this work is important. And as you said, it seems so simple. It seems so simple. But for us and the people that it serves, you know, we know that it can be life changing.

Absolutely. And from working with clients for 25 years, there aren't many opportunities like this. They come with a lot more barriers or strings attached or applications that are a little more cumbersome, all of that. So it's pretty awesome to just say, how about we just pay for treatment?

That's it. It's that simple. And like I said with our funders, they have been so supportive of this work. And you know, Rachel, sometimes it's hard to measure. Everybody wants outcomes and performance measures and all that great stuff. Of course you need that to have that funding. But you never know what is that moment in time when it's going to make a difference for that client. And we say that a lot in prevention work. Like, we don't know that pebble that we throw the ripple effect that it's going to have and feel the same exact way about the counseling grants program. You know, we get folks that have been in therapy two or three or four times. You know, they may not have been ready. They may not have been ready to start their journey before, and they are now. We have a client on our counseling era program that's 76 years old and had not talked to anybody about her trauma until after her husband passed away. It's never too late. It's never too late to start that journey.

That is true. And I think there is a ripple effect for friends and family as well as the life of the individual that cannot really be accurately measured, but we know happens.

Absolutely.

Yeah. So, you know, the other thing that really strikes me about your organization that I wanted to dig into a little bit is that you specifically really are passionate about the power in Partnerships. At least that's what you want. I'd love to hear you. You talk more about that. What are some of your thoughts around that? What does that look like for change the conversation?

Yeah. So, again, coming from an organization, this was built in me early on, understanding the. The power of partnership. And for me, it really comes down to the simple belief that we truly can accomplish so much more together than any one individual can at this organization. Specifically, going back to the fact that we're a very small organization and we're very thoughtful about our resources, understanding that by partnering with other organizations and people that are doing similar work, we're going to have such a greater reach and a greater impact. And so for us, what that translates into is co presenting trainings with other organizations, creating partnerships that will allow us to access people and organizations that we might not be able to do on our own, and finding ways to bring something to the table that is valuable but not duplicative. So again, we're always very thoughtful about not trying to be competitive or to. To sort of step on anybody's toes. But I believe that doing it together makes us both more powerful and in the end increases the access and increases the reach that any one of us would have on our own. And I've seen so many examples of that in my professional career that really made an incredible impact on the people that we serve. And so you're absolutely right. I am a strong believer in collaboration, and I truly believe that there is room for everybody at the table. We all bring something unique to the conversation, and it has really allowed us to, again, reach so many more people. I'll use the counseling grants program as an example. When I started here, I think we had two or three partners that we were working with and maybe five to 10 clinicians. And I looked at the numbers and thought, oh, my God, there are so many clinicians out here doing this work. And if they only knew about us and they only knew the services that were here. Again, coming from, you know, an outpatient mental health clinic, I'm like, I know the need is there. And so once we revamped the program, it was a total marketing spree that we went on. We met with everybody that we could, that we knew that was doing this work. And we're very thoughtful in terms of our partnerships and ensuring that folks are not only trauma informed, but the practices and the modalities that they're using are trauma informed.

So, so critical.

That is so critical. It is so critical. It's. It's a word that gets Overused, honestly. And oftentimes, people can be trauma informed, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the modalities or the treatment that they're providing are trauma informed. It's a qualifier for us on the clinician side, you know, to protect that integrity and to really know that when we're supporting these clients that they are receiving the type of care from the clinician that has the education and the experience to be able to provide that care, and that no harm will be done in that process.

I always say there is a huge difference between being trauma informed and actually knowing how to treat trauma and that it's great to be trauma informed. And that doesn't mean you know how to help somebody actually treat their trauma, because talking doesn't work.

You are so correct in that, Rachel. And that approach is, again, our qualifiers for the clinician. They're. They're not heavy. They are. The person has to be licensed. They can't have disciplinary action on their license, and they have to demonstrate that the care that they're providing is trauma informed. And so when clients come to us directly, we don't hold any protected health information. And very rarely, honestly, do we get a client that reaches out to us directly. We work directly with practices and clinicians to identify clients. But if that were the case and somebody did, you know, of course we provide them a list of resources. But part of the reason that it's set up like that is so that we can cultivate those relationships with those practices and those clinicians to understand the treatment that they are providing. And so it's really important to us, again, that we hold that integrity of that.

Yeah, definitely. So what's kind of next? What's the vision for change? The conversation? Where do you want to go?

Yeah, that's a great question. We're getting ready to come up on our third year of our strategic plan, which is wild to me. We are looking at starting our next strategic plan, and for us, it's growth. We finally have the foundation in place of where we want to go and what we want to do. And for us, it is very much about prevention and education. I'm continuing to find ways to support people that have been impacted. One of the projects that we're currently working on that was again funded by the governor's office is a resource guide specifically for those that have been impacted by either religious or institutional authorities. In 2023, there were so many local stories about child sexual abuse. And, you know, the archdiocese report came out here in Baltimore. We had several schools where teachers or staff had been charged with child sexual abuse. And we heard from those that have been impacted that, you know, every time they hear this story, it can be triggering to them. And for some causes, them, this reflection of when is enough, when you keep hearing it over and over again and people say they're going to do better. But here we are still having these conversations. And so we're developing a resource guide that is specifically for those that have been impacted by that type of sexual abuse. And for us, the project has just kicked off. We have an incredible steering committee that is working on that. And for us, the guide will be available in July for publication. And so we are currently putting together focus groups from a variety of different sources. So stakeholders, those that have been impacted, partners, organizations that work specifically with that population and doing a lot of research, a lot of research goes into it in being able to develop this guide. So very excited about that. And then continued growth with our counseling grants program, continued growth with our prevention work. And what that looks like for us is adding more school districts, adding more partnerships and being able to reach out to those that quite frankly, we just, we haven't had the time to. They remain important and they remain at the top of the list. But we're a very small team. We're a team of five. And so for us, we have a long list of folks that we would love to engage in these discussions. Another project that we're currently working on is specifically understanding child sexual abuse for those that have been impacted by disabilities. Last year we actually had a request to provide that training and it wasn't something that, that we were familiar with. So I did some research and found out that there aren't a whole lot of resources out there. So reached out to the office for Victims of Crime and asked for technical assistance and they provided it. So we are currently working on two presentations. There'll be a one hour and a three hour training that will launch April to coincide with Child Abuse Prevention Month that specifically focus on child sexual abuse and working with those that have disabilities. So very excited about that as well.

That's incredible. Yeah, much needed.

It is. And I, I think for a lot of folks, understanding the increased vulnerability for those that have disabilities and not only from them experiencing it, but them reporting it. So, you know, if you have somebody that is, that is unable to speak, you know, it can be much more difficult. And one of the big challenges that we have is so much work with that population is done one on one. And if you attend any of our child sexual abuse trainings, you'll hear avoid one on one circumstances. So there's definitely been some contradiction to our message that we've had to research and had to identify resources and we found some incredible ones out there. So it's a training we're really excited about. But yeah, those are what we're looking forward to. New opportunities and truly finding the gaps that are out there that again, align with our mission and give us the opportunity to go in and say, here we are and this is what these resources are all about.

I love that. I mean, finding the gaps is what, you know, supports us all working together. So thank you for the work that you're doing in that.

Absolutely. And it has proven to be incredibly successful. We have a new partnership in Frederick county with the state's Attorney, attorney's office and the Child Advocacy center around their project that they just launched around cyber safety. And we're so excited to start co presenting with them and talk about the power of partnership. I mean, to be able to have us and the state's attorney's office and the Child Advocacy center all be able to go in and offer our perspective. It really gives that wraparound approach and helps folks better understand the continuum of, okay, you know about child sexual abuse, now you've reported it, now it's going to be investigated. And these are the steps along the way. And I think that takes some of the mystery out of it and helps folks that are maybe concerned about being intimidated or feeling unsure to at least know what resources are out there. Really excited about that partnership.

Well, Katie, that is our time for today, but I'm so glad that you came. I love what you're doing. All of the information will be in the show notes for anybody that wants to get in touch with Katie or the organization. Change the conversation.

Thank you for having me here today.