Integrating Yoga into Therapy | Chris McDonald of the Podcast, Yoga in the Therapy Room

Overall, I'm just less reactive. I'm able to stay calmer. My anxiety is. Is there, but it's never as bad as it was. It does come up at times, but much more in my window of tolerance. So I'm not taking out of that as often. It takes a lot more to get me riled up, but just knowing that, and I've seen the results with clients that they are able to move through. With all the modalities I use so much quicker, it's so much more effective, makes my session so much more. And you know why clients love it? Because it's tools they can use at home. So this is integrated in their personal life, too. And I've had many converts, especially male clients are usually more hesitant. But the ones that I've taught, they're just like, oh, my God, this is amazing. And they can see those practices. And since I started the holistic counseling podcast, that was the number one thing I've done focus groups and I have a Facebook group for them, and that's the number one thing they want to learn. How do I integrate yoga into clinical sessions? How do you do this?

Welcome to the Mental Health Entrepreneur Podcast. We are here to inspire creative ideas and connections for entrepreneurs and advocates working to address our mental health crisis. As you listen, I hope you will experience new ideas and motivation to innovate in your business, your community, and in your life. Welcome back, everyone, to the Mental Health Entrepreneur Podcast. Today we're going to be talking with Chris McDonald, who is a mental health professional who integrates yoga into her practice. She is also an author and podcast host of Yoga in the Therapy Room. Welcome, Chris.

Thanks for having me. I've been enjoying your podcast.

Amazing. Thanks for being here. You are clearly an innovator and I love that about you. Thank you. Yeah. So tell me more about how you got interested in going beyond talk therapy, because I know we all get trained in graduate school in that talk therapy modality. So how did that start to shift for you?

It's been a process and kind of a slow process. It's not like one day I woke up and say, hey, I want to integrate yoga. It didn't go that way so long time ago. When I went to grad school in 1995, I graduated and we didn't learn much about holistic modalities at all. So I jumped in as a school counselor. I was a school counselor for 16 years.

Okay.

So that's where I started. I noticed with students I'd work with that just talking with them was helpful. But I had a lot of repeat offenders who would come see me all the time. So those kids, I was like, they need something more. So I started to teach breathwork. So I learned some breathwork techniques. And this was back before we had YouTube and all these handy dandy resources and podcasts. So I actually got a book and learned on my own and studied on my own and practiced on my own and taught it to some kids with amazing results. I had a lot of kids with anxiety, especially school anxiety, and this became a tool that was so helpful for so many, that was much more effective than just talk therapy. Not that there's anything wrong with traditional therapy, but a lot of people need something more is what I found over the years. And as I moved to licensure and when I was in the school system, I found I would hit a CBT wall and that we could only go so far. We're just kind of stuck. Like, how do we move past this? What I found then, too, was breath work wasn't enough. We have to get more of the body involved. So I learned more about somatic practices, and. And I actually met a roommate who shared a space with me for therapy, and she talked about bringing yoga into session and giving it as homework. And I stepped back. I was like, whoa, I want to be able to do that. So that was like, a little bit of a seed back in 2016. Okay, this sounds really cool. So then I started to take some yoga, which was called subtle yoga, with Christine Weber in Asheville, North Carolina. And that kind of got me rolling with this and ended UP certified in 2019. This was not the path I thought I was going to take at all, and I just integrated all of it and just loved it so much. So that's kind of where I went, just moving from traditional to gradually learning. And also I left out meditation. So I did learn meditation as well, learned some Buddhist techniques, did my training, and went to some local Buddhist places where we did weekly meeting, sangha, we call that, and talked about dharma, different teachings, and practice meditation. And they really focused on creating our own daily practice. And I do that with yoga as well.

Okay, great. So what was it about yoga and maybe meditation? Maybe it's the same. Maybe it's slightly different. That really seemed to feel like it was the missing piece or the part that made the difference for you.

Well, I know you mentioned before we hit record about sharing other things outside of, you know, what we do and as a professional, but yoga is me outside of therapy. It's personal and professional for me. So I have created a daily yoga and meditation practice and incorporate all these practices myself. And pranayama, we call that pranayama. And yoga is breath work. So using that has helped me to better help my nervous system to stay in a calmer space. When I worked in the school system, just to rewind a second, I got very stressed out. I would start the day, alarm goes off, run all day long. And I was probably in that sympathetic state in the nervous system. I didn't understand it as well when I was doing this. And when you're a school counselor, it is very difficult. You're thrown into lots of roles and just juggling, juggling, juggling more than you can ever imagine. And it had a consequence. I was having migraines like three times a week. I would be at the doctor a lot. Well, especially working with children, you know, you're have unfortunately a lot more germs and. But I mean, I was sick a lot. And since, you know, I've been able to incorporate this pretty much daily since 2016, 2017 ish, that I've really been able to be much more in a healthy space, been able to better take care of myself. And that's what I promote with clients as well, to be able to create their own personal practice if they want. But then they see the results and they're just like, oh my God, this is so amazing because it helps the holistic part of all of us, mind, body and spirit.

And I love that you mentioned that because I think you're right. Yoga and meditation can certainly be integrated into therapy. And I want to talk to you a little bit about what that looks like. But it also can be something that anyone can do and create their own practice, even outside of the therapy room. What does this look like to integrate it into a therapy session?

So when I get a new client, I talk about yoga and what it is and the type of yoga I do. So listeners may be thinking of yoga as Instagram when people do contortionist kind of poses. That is not all what yoga is about. Just gonna clarify that.

That's good clarification.

And it's not fit yoga. I don't teach fit yoga because I have back issues and I can't do a lot of that super fast yoga. Oh, I mean, it's good. It's got a point for cardio, but for me it's all about slow, mindful movement, connecting to the body, somatic practices. There's so much that we can bring in the therapy room as therapists to really help with healing. And I know you mentioned that you also treat trauma, so it is just perfect for helping with trauma as well. So there's lots of different ways. So once clients understand what I teach, then part of this is informed consent. So it is in my paperwork. As far as informed consent, there's always consent. Every time we do it in session, no matter how many times I've seen a client. How would this feel for you today if we did a little bit of movement or breath or meditation, and if they say no, then we do something else? Where would you like to go today? So, of course, it's always about choice and keeping it trauma informed, meaning that they always have the choice. With trauma, they don't have the choice. So this helps them to empower themselves to create the session the way they want it to go. And I do have some clients, if they want to start with yoga, to begin the session before we even get going. Do you want to do some grounding? Would you like to do some breath work to start each time?

Sure.

You know, some people, they really like that. Other people don't. We might do it in the middle sometimes it's organic. Like, I've had clients come in that are just restless and can't sit still, and they'll tell me they'll actually be moving around in session, and I'll be like, can we pause for a moment? Would it be okay if we did some practices to kind of move through some of that anxious energy? And they're like, yes, please. And then by the time we are done and we have a seat again, then they're much calmer, more focused. We can focus on the issue. I also use brain spotting. Maybe get to brain spotting at that point, or we might end it. So there's lots of different ways to integrate yoga into sessions. So I might say, hey, we have 10 minutes left. How would it feel to do some movement or meditation at the end? And sometimes clients bring it up too. Can we do that yoga thing where arm up? Which is great. I love for them. And I tell them, I try to empower them. You're welcome to ask for what you need in this session. So there's so many different ways we can bring this in, but sometimes we just can do awareness. And a lot of therapists listening may be like, I can't do yoga with clients. Yes, you can, and you probably already are. So if you tell clients to be aware, I'm noticing their body. What do you notice as you talk about this in your body? That's yoga. That's awareness. Keeping it that simple.

Yeah, yeah. And I love that you clarified that. This doesn't mean we have to, like, clear a big space and get our

mats out at all.

Do down dog and all of those

and be in workout clothes.

Right, right. Yeah. And I know, like, I've seen, like, there's chair yoga, there's breathing, there's all kinds of movements that can be done in dress clothes, even, and especially because

I'm not teaching, like, super hard poses. Think of simplifying all this down to where it's easy, even if it's inhale, bringing our arms up, exhale, bringing arms down, and think about that. That's still getting people in their bodies.

Definitely.

And I do it with them, by the way, because we can't just tell clients to do these practices and not do it with them.

Oh, what a great clarification.

Yes.

Right. That would feel very awkward to somebody

if you're like, okay, put your arms up. I'm not going to show you. So this is a collaborative process.

I like that. And what has gotten you so passionate about it? I know it's kind of the direction that you're moving in, right? Absolutely. So what is it about doing this that really inspires you?

I think because I've seen the positive result on my nervous system and my health overall, I'm just less reactive. I'm able to stay calmer. My anxiety is there, but it's never as bad as it was. It does come up at times, but much more in my window of tolerance. So I'm not taking out of that as often. It takes a lot more to get me riled up, but just knowing that, and I've seen the results with clients that they are able to move through. With all the modalities I use so much quicker, it's so much more effective, makes my session so much more. And you know why clients love it? Because it's tools they can use at home. So I assign it as homework. So this is integrated in their personal life, too. Because most people that see me aren't interested in holistic modalities and yoga, so they're pretty open to using that. And some that aren't, they're just like, okay, I'll give it a try. And I've had many converts, especially male clients are usually more hesitant. But the ones that I've taught, they're just like, oh, my God, this is amazing. And they can see those practices. And since I started the holistic counseling podcast, which is the podcast I'm rebranding to Yoga in the therapy room, my listeners, that was the number one thing I've done focus groups and I have a Facebook group for them and that's the number one thing they want to learn. How do I integrate yoga into clinical sessions? How do you do this?

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's going to be the focus of this new podcast? Yes, yes.

Yep.

Okay. I definitely want to talk about your podcast journey, but first I want to circle back to what about yoga for people that are not in therapy? And I know you have a book about self care practices. I imagine there's some yoga in there. What would you suggest for people that are like, hey, I would just love to add some things to my toolbox. I don't know if I'm ready to go into the therapy room. Do you have thoughts on that?

The first step too is to create your own practice. In my opinion, you cannot teach yoga unless you're doing yoga. You have to embody these practices because people will know that you're not doing them if you're not really into your body fully. They'll know it's just not the same. General.

What about people that are not therapists but just want to start integrating some wellness and meditation or yoga into their lives? You have recommendations for that?

Yeah, just start small because I think some people think I have to do a 90 minute yoga class. No, you don't. You can start even just doing 10 minutes, 15 minutes in the morning, picking a time of day that works for you. Some people like to do it before bed, even just even doing child's pose. Start with one pose. If it's hard to motivate yourself and see how that feels and then continue moving on. You know we have YouTube now too if you want to do short practices. And I always tell people to make sure you're looking at beginner if you've never done yoga before. Because if you go to a community like a gym, you're gonna probably have fit yoga, which is fine. But think about what is the intention for you. Do you wanna use this as a self care practice just for physical or do you want the mental emotional benefit? So if you want that then you probably want a slower practice, a slow flow yoga, a yin yoga, something that's going to slow you down because most of us are moving too fast and we don't take time for ourselves to slow down and connect to the body.

That's true. Your self care book, I love that you kind of focus on things that are very actionable and like actually skills. Right. So how did you get inspired to write that?

So the first book I wrote, Self Care for the Counselor, was in 2017. I always had wanted to be a writer and then I became a therapist counselor. But then I was like, how can I use these skills? Because what I determined was like, wow, I've really been able to do some self care practices and talking to other therapists, they have struggled. A lot of therapists out there really have a difficult time. And most people, even if you're not in the therapy field with how do I do a daily practice and a preventative practice? That's more of what I promote too. Because yeah, we can wait till we're stressed and we're at a 8 or 9 on that scale of 1 to 10, if 10's the worst as far as anxiousness or stress. But then it's gonna be much more difficult to calm ourselves. But if we can put these preventions in place by putting these times or whatever you wanna do as far as your routine goes, then it's gonna help build that inner resilience. To find that calm, the more consistent we can be. You are rewiring your brain towards more calm resilience and these routines. Your brain's gonna wanna go there in the morning or whenever you do it during your day, it's gonna make such an impact on you.

Yeah, I agree. That's definitely for me, that's my morning. I have a workout and then a little yoga and a little meditation. And the days that I don't do that are just not the same.

Once you can really get into more of that calm space too, it's just really powerful. And that can be your motivation for those that wanna do this. But I wanted to reach other people that were struggling with creating these routines. Cause I talk a lot about self care also. The whole part of everybody, like physical as far as eating habits, you know, I've always tried to eat more healthy and I know that's a struggle for lots of people. So in my second book, which is a workbook, that was one thing I talk about that sleep. Sleep hygiene is huge. That impacts every part of us. I talk a lot about sleep too. So there's just all these different pieces that make up all of us that we have to really address and. But break it down into small steps.

Yeah. So I do want to talk about your podcast journey too. So you have your podcast right now is about holistic therapy, right?

Yes.

And then you're switching that. So can you talk a little bit about this journey? I'd love to Hear how your original podcast got started and then now the transition for you.

When I wrote the book, I thought, what is the best way to get this out there? Because this was self published, so it's really difficult when you self publish to reach an audience. And I thought, what about a podcast? So I had this little seed planted and I took a training on it and honestly took me a while to get the courage to get out here. And it's hard to put your as you know, to put yourself out there. But then I came up with the idea of the holistic counseling podcast. I actually had a coach, Joe Sanak from Practice of the Practice, shout out to him cause he helped me come up with the name of the podcast and started that direction.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. And you've had a lot of episodes. I don't even know how many in the Hundreds of episodes.

190 something.

Yeah, yeah. So you must be loving podcasting.

Yeah, yeah, it's going well, but I just make it part of my routine as well. So I created my whole private practice around the podcast and around my self care as well. So I have Mondays are my podcast day and then Tuesday through Friday I see clients.

Okay.

Make it all part of my routine

and yeah, that makes sense. And so what's inspiring the change to the new Yoga in the Therapy Room podcast?

Just to back up. So last fall, since I had so many listeners interested in integrating yoga, I created a course called Yoga Basics for Therapists. How to integrate yoga into sessions effectively and safely as well as ethically. I did two pilot groups and one this spring, and I was like, okay, so people are really wanting this and they're so excited about this. And I had success with the people that took the course, so why not move the podcast in that direction? Because here's what happened, and I told you this too before we hit record, is that, you know, I let lots of different people on the show, which is great. People wanted to learn about different holistic modalities. The problem is my numbers were dropping. I mean, significant. I'm not saying like one or two people. I'm talking very significantly. I think it got too broad, which is good. But then it's not so good from a business standpoint. I feel like that the direction was kind of lost and got muddled with how many things we were focusing on. So I thought niching down would be in alignment with the course. I want to be able to provide courses for therapists on how to integrate yoga into sessions and then be able to support therapists on this journey as well.

Okay, so you've been in the process of switching that over. And when does that new one launch?

September 18th.

Oh, it's soon. So you've already probably recorded.

Yes.

Okay. Yeah. Now, are you bringing guests on, or is this mostly you teaching and giving tips and those kinds of things?

So it's going to be mostly solo episodes. I'm going to have yoga snacks once a month, which are a practice episode only, like a meditation or brief movement practice or somatic practice.

Oh, nice.

Yeah. So that'll be a short little blip. I say snack because it's going to be under 15 minutes. Is my goal just to make it a little. Little. Just like, oh, let me listen and try this and learn about this. But I'm also going to have some community engagement with the podcast as well. I'm hoping to get listeners onto the show in different ways. More about that later. But making this. It's not just about me, of course. It's about the listeners. We wouldn't be here without them. So making them a part of things, 100%.

Yeah. Starting these podcasts, writing this book, and starting your practice, those are all entrepreneurial things that you're doing. What has the entrepreneur journey been like for you? I always like to ask that question.

Yeah. So just to back up, too, I was in the school system. I worked for the state. I had no entrepreneurial journey before.

Right.

So I realized what I don't want the rest of my life was to work for somebody else anymore, be told what to do, to be pigeonholed and be so scattered in so many directions and have to work under so many people and so many opinions that I just said no. And I quit the school system June 13, 2013. It just got to be too much. So I decided to get my licensure. And, you know, I did work for some agencies to start out, and then I moved to my private practice and really wanted to do my own thing and. And blaze my own trail. So it's been kind of a process. Like I said, I never thought I'd be where I am. I never even imagined that I wouldn't be a podcaster. You know, this is something I really wanted to learn more about and give it a go. And that's what it is, isn't it? We got to put things out there, see what works, see where we land, but know that we can shift. We can always rewrite our own story, and that's okay, right?

I think there's a very truism that if you're gonna try to get it all perfect. You're never gonna start.

No.

Right. You have to be willing to risk and willing to fail. Then it's just about getting back up and figuring it out from there.

Exactly.

Is there something that you really would like listeners to know? Either entrepreneurial advice, maybe self care advice? What's kind of a one thing that you could leave people with today?

Probably just to really listen to yourself. I talk to clients and other therapists about really tuning into the inner wisdom, intuition, higher self, whatever you want to call it. We all have that little voice that can direct us. And if you're feeling unhappy where you are in your career, really listen to that. And it can be scary to make a change. But really think about dig deep.

Right.

Can I dig deep into getting brave and to take this step forward so that maybe that you could land in a better place because you don't have to stay where where you are. There are other options and opportunities out there.

I love that.

Yeah.

Well, Chris, thank you for being on. I cannot wait to tune into your new podcast. Thank you everyone listening. You can find information about Chris and her books and her current podcast as well as the new one in our show notes. Thanks for being here.